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Who actually wants the Dublin Airport passenger cap abolished?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,955 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Because the airlines aren't either mad or made of money. If these routes were viable from anywhere in Ireland, they'd already be happening from Dublin.

    e.g. South Africa - no open skies agreement so it has to be either SAA or Aer Lingus. SAA is broke. Aer Lingus don't have aircraft that can comfortably cover that range without big reductions in passenger / cargo load. Making it unprofitable. Meanwhile there are lots of places in North America that same Aer Lingus aircraft (and you'd need at least two of them dedicated to a route like SA) could be making money easily.

    Ireland - Japan is a very long and thin (low demand) route. If it ever happens - and it may well never happen - it can only ever be viable from Dublin

    Same with Latin America, TAP have that market sewn up with dozens of flights from Portugal and there is plenty of connectivity from here to Lisbon. Iberia from Spain to LatAm too, to a lesser extent. An extremely price sensitive market that isn't prepared to pay substantially more just to avoid a stopover

    No tourist is coming in to go to a match in the Aviva or watch Garth Brooks at Croker.

    You must be joking, how do you think all the away fans at international matches in the Aviva get here? Then there's the Europa League finals it staged, when both teams were away. And yes, thousands and thousands of people come to Dublin when there is a big concert on, clearly you've never been in Dublin city centre on the day / weekend of one.

    Clearly a lot of anti-Dublin sentiment on this thread, but very little facts or logic in evidence.

    And yes tourism in Dublin is very much year-round

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I could hit the ferry, although that would cost me or my employer a lot more than flying. There are many many flights that are taken every single day that simply don't need to happen with our abilities to run online meetings. A qualified person over there should be able to fix a machine or system just as well as an Irish person.

    It's true, if the planes don't come here they go to Manchester/Glasgow/London - but what if they can't go there either?

    With any luck allowing the cap to be raised only after infrastructure is built should bring about faster deployment of infrastructure. I think the greens were wrong to blankly oppose raising the cap but what if they said the cap raised when the metro or the Western M50 is built? Your 25 years could become 2.5 years and then everybody wins



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The only real lack of routes seems to be Asia….and there are plenty options to there by transiting.,

    The US is well covered, UK, Europe and the middle east all pretty well covered no?

    So is this a want rather than a have to have or am I missing where the big need for expansion is.

    Its not as if current links in and out are seriously lacking? I'm at a bit of a loss as to how the cap is holding the country back?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I believe that's domestic aviation only. As I said before, we don't count (international) aviation in our emissions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,815 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    If that was the case then we're going down a Rabbit-hole of deciding who gets to fly and who doesn't, I think the Chinese are doing that with a Social Credit system where people can be banned from travel: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/china-to-bar-people-with-bad-social-credit-from-planes-trains-idUSKCN1GS10Q/

    I can't find the source but I recall it was suggested in Europe that a credit system tied to the environment would restrict the number of flights a person could take in a year.. is that where we really want to be?



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    "Build it and they can come" was probably wrong phrasing on my part. I guess I meant "Use it and it will come". People didn't use the passenger ferry port we had, and it closed. If there was increased demand for ferry services - say through Dublin Port - then Dún Laoghaire may become viable again.

    And yes, flights shouldn't be cheaper than overland. Overland isn't bad btw - a Sailrail ticket from Dublin to London is €58 (foot passenger on the ferry and train to London). Ryanair are advertising flights to Gatwick on Wednesday 12th November for €20 - but it's €25 to bring a bag onboard and €12 for a bus from Gatwick to London central (where the train leaves you), so that's coming out the same. Ryanair flights to London will fluctuate a lot in price though, whereas Sailrail won't. And again, completely agree there should be more of a price differential in terms of fuel tax (we know tax on petrol is substantial, but there's no tax on aviation fuel), subsidies, etc.

    I completely agree on your comment on medical students. (And let's not forget that developing countries can really struggle to provide medical services when wealthy countries take their doctors - but hey, a rich life is worth more than a poor life…)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Why can it only be viable through Dublin though, you haven't explained? Yes Dublin is the capital but most tourists who come here want to either see the Wild Atlantic Way or spend a week in Kerry

    If the price is right for an airline to fly a 150 seater jet twice a week into Shannon or Cork it should be viable to have such a route regardless of whether Dublin already has it or not

    Don't worry looking for a source, I've heard of it as well and it was rightly scrapped before getting off the ground for being completely daft. I would never suggest a Chinese style of anything except perhaps in terms of cuisine

    If we are serious about cutting air travel, as I said earlier, we need viable alternatives, not overpriced ferries and rail services. Build them and you won't need a cap



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    What's wrong with restricting the number of flights a person takes in a year? I see no issues with it - considering the unquestionable damage it's doing to the environment.

    Remember only 10% of people in the world take a flight in any one year. Are we saying we can't live without something that 90% of the world don't do?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    As a pure, passenger only, point to point, a sail-rail ticket will be normally cheaper than airfare plus transport to city centre - as will a eurolines bus+ferry ticket.

    After giving out to another poster for cherry-picking stuff to suit their argument, this is a strange claim to make.

    Flights to London are often under €50. I just checked, Friday 24th July is €42 to Stansted and more than double that (€86), and that's before any onward train journey. Sailing is much more expensive in pretty much every scenario, bar for last minute, and even then, someone in a hurry isn't getting the ferry.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,955 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,955 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    We have significant other infrastructure costs coming down the line that no budget provision is in place for, housing, water and electricity mainly.

    Billions of euro allocated to these only last week - you used the word yourself, "budget".

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Sailrail is a brilliant idea in theory although you are losing a huge portion of your day travelling, if you arrive on the last ferry into hollyhead I believe I checked once that it was 10 hours to London?

    The price is not bad at €58 each way and as you say largely comparable to Ryanair in many respects. Checking the online booking though there's not many times left. If I wanted to go next weekend for example I'd have to be leaving Dublin Port at 5.45 on the Friday and leaving hollyhead at 1am on the Saturday night/sunday morning

    Again I repeat that if you tax aviation fuel the price of flying goes up, certainly, but so too does the price of every other form of transport. Pull the taxes on sailrail/trains etc and then you might have a winner



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,955 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    @Red Silurian

    Why not? It's only an airport. If anything it would make all of the routes more profitable as they would have less direct competition. There's no reason why Shannon or Cork need to copy the routes already flying out of Dublin

    Not everybody who comes into Ireland wants to see Dublin, and if they do they can hop on a train or bus or rent a car to see it

    Dublin is the biggest tourism and business destination in Ireland. It's also got by far the most populous catchment area of outbound Irish passengers. If an airline can't be sure of filling a plane sufficiently between some city and Dublin, they're definitely not filling that plane sufficiently going to Cork or Shannon instead.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    You've clearly never priced the sail-rail combos that are available then

    Just picking a day at random:

    Dublin to Holyhead, including a train ticket onwards to any city centre station in London is €59 all-in.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    And the eurolines ferry/bus combo is currently €30 to London.

    https://www.expressway.ie/eurolines

    Maybe next time do a tiny bit of research before making big claims.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    It is slower of course - but so what? Is our time more important than the planet?

    And I'd say the time - door to door - for flying isn't quite as much quicker as you'd think. Arrive at the Port 30 minutes before departure, 2:15 hour crossing (summer only in fairness), 4:30 train and say an hour of a connection in Holyhead - 8:15 hours all told.

    By plane - arrive at the airport two hours early (recommended time - as with the 30 minutes at the Port), 90 minute flight, 30 minutes getting through Gatwick airport to the shuttle, another hour getting from Gatwick to Victoria. 5:00 hours total. Dublin Port is more central, so for many (but far from all) people it'll be quicker to reach too. But let's ignore that for here.

    I can see availability on all Irish Ferries trips next Sat (as a foot passenger anyway) - and Ryanair is now up to nearly €200 to get you in before 5pm. So the land trip is three hours slower, €140 cheaper, more relaxing, and reduces emissions about 80-90%.

    Seems a good trade off to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The thread should have been closed after this post. It provided all the reasons why a cap is a stupid idea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭A320


    We live on an island you spastic, I think it's time for your COVID booster.

    Restrict yourself don't expect others to play your silly game

    Mod Edit: warned for personal abuse

    Post edited by Necro on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    The problem with sail and rail is the amount of time it takes, leave Dublin at 8:05, get to London around 16:30.

    With a flight, leave Dublin 8:05, land in London 9:00, most people wouldn't even consider sail and rail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,955 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You're only considering inbound passengers. Ireland isn't the Canaries and these aren't holiday charters, they depend on a lot, or most, of the passengers being Irish residents. Dublin has by far the greatest population of potential passengers in its catchment area. But as far as incoming is concerned, Dublin is also the biggest tourism and business destination on the island. So it's better off on both counts

    A small / niche airline might go to Shannon or Cork to avoid competition in Dublin, but this means high fares, so people in the Shannon and Cork catchments still often end up going to Dublin to fly outbound. This has been tried, but didn't last long, and Ryanair have a habit of copying routes like that with extremely low fares to drive competitors out of business. Then once they're gone, drop the route…

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    I'm not disputing the time it takes - I'm countering the multiple false claims being made about the cost being excessively higher than flying.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    Is that one-way? What about the return leg? You wouldn't be misrepresenting the actual cost, by any chance, by leaving out half the journey?

    Here's the same day return flights……cheaper all round, even if you're only counting one leg. Cheapest flight on the day is €39. How is €59 cheaper than that? What about food and drink while you're doing all that travelling?

    image.png

    I did. Same date, flights are cheaper, not to mention hours shorter. You could be home and all after your meeting in London before the Holyhead train arrives after spending about 7hrs travelling. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before accusing anyone of making big claims?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    You quoted a single fare - which is what I replied to.

    For the examples you've pulled, you still have the cost of transport from the airport into London to add to all of those air fares. None of which supports your exaggerated claims that air is cheaper in "pretty much every scenario".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Maybe I'm doing something wrong then as only the 19:45 is showing up with availability for me? Did you remember to pick ferry&rail as opposed to just ferry on the first page?

    image.png image.png

    Checking the trainline (as that's the only reference I have to go off for British trains, if you have a better one I'm all ears) for the 18th. In fairness you're not actually far off it's coming in at 4hrs from Hollyhead to London for the connection for most sailings, the exceptions being the last 2 sailings where it takes 5h34 on the 17:20 train and for the last sailing you're waiting for the 7:46 train the following morning

    Won't suit for a weekend break but if you're going for a week or 2 or travelling for work those hours won't make much of a difference if you're not living in Dublin.

    I'm assuming all things equal, if you're not living in Dublin it definitely won't suit but neither will leaving from Dublin Airport and obviously both ships and airplanes are subject to delays etc

    The last time I left my house in Limerick for London at 6am and was sipping coffee in Borough Market at 10am but that's the beauty of Shannon and the convenient connectivity of Stansted to Southwark. If I was doing Dublin Airport the Sail/Rail might be as fast

    Also with regards to the price, are you forgetting about the cabin booking on the ferry?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    I never quoted a single fare, that's you making assumptions. Every fare I've quoted so far has been return. And they're STILL cheaper than yours, never mind taking up half the time.

    For the examples you've pulled, you still have the cost of transport from the airport into London to add to all of those air fares. None of which supports your exaggerated claims that air is cheaper in "pretty much every scenario".

    Stansted express is a tenner. Same with Luton. Gatwick is about £15-20, which, when added to the flight cost mentioned above, is STILL cheaper than ONE LEG of your journey. Miniscule, in comparison to the amount of food and drink you'd end up consuming on a 3hr ferry crossing and a 4hr train journey, or a 10hr bus trip.

    You're telling me that nothing supports it while steadfastly ignoring the fact that every single example offered so far proves my 'exaggerated' (lol) claim. Every single one. Your claim is the one that has been blown out of the water, and shown for the nonsense that it is, I'm afraid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,722 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Not everyone getting the Ferry is going to London.

    Worked in place that did a support run to Preston and the guy doing it used to take the ferry because he was Dublin South and crossing the city, parking queuing in the airport hiring a car etc was slower than getting the Ferry at that time. I did the run by airport and spent most of the day sitting around in airports.

    That's was then. Probably been out outsourced to China or AI does it now.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Miniscule, in comparison to the amount of food and drink you'd end up consuming on a 3hr ferry crossing and a 4hr train journey

    You're going to eat what you're going to eat - it makes no sense including food in one price and not in the other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    Yes, since Aer Lingus dropped the route- which was routinely at capacity. It’s three times the fare now though, although afaik the flights are still full. A 6am flyer is not traditionally a tourist, that’s a business traveler.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    Ryanair wanted the old terminal in Cork as a base and the DAA wouldn’t allow it. The DAA also promised to absorb the cost of the new terminal in Cork rather than saddle them with debt they didn’t want which they subsequently reneged on. If there wasn’t such a conflict of interest in the governance of Cork Airport I wonder if most of the flights would still be going to Lanzarote and Marbella.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,722 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think the 10% want cheaper and more flights and stuff the 90%. You can't really hear Dublin airport noise from Spain.



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