Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)

Just to avoid what I think is some confusion here. Clones are rates as A, A++ (AA), A+++ (AAA), and super clones. Usually A and A+ clones are your Sunday market variety, maybe 50-100 euro. It is easy to spot visually A and A++ rated clones. A+++ clones use similar materials, but a basic movement, that is dressed up to look like the real deal, usually costs around 200-400 euro. Could catch you out but anyone in the know and especially if they have a loupe, could spot them. Super Clones are designed to be 1:1 copies, where the movement is copied along with the materials, usually around 800-2000 euro. Identical materials (bar precious metals). You might catch one if you are experienced and have the original sitting beside you also. But these are getting better and better all the time, to the point, as I wrote above, that a time will come in the not-too-distant future where it might be impossible to distinguish it from the real thing.

A Panerai clone that does not have the same strap mechanism as the original is by definition not a superclone. If you have a clone that you can easily tell is fake then that aint a super clone. So I think that maybe there is some definitional confusion going on. Prime87 if your super clone is that obvious, and you didnt pay a grand for it, I would respectfully suggest you may not have been given what was advertised to you. I was walking around MBK in Bangkok looking at fakes (if you know what that place is, then you know its a mecca for faked goods). While every seller told me these were AAA or noob Superclones, I did not see one super clone. Some of the AAA were fairly close. Superclones it would seem are sold direct and are super expensive. I will avoid posting links but I have little doubt from first hand reports from multiple experienced dealers and the internet that an actual superclone are very very close and getting "better" all the time. Precision manufacturing is getting cheaper and automation of polishing getting better.

Look at this vid (and all the way through, the lengths the guy goes to is extraordinary). It can still be spotted, but admits that without specialist equipment and a genuine comparator, it would catch out most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFasnEl2y20

Answer one - Rolex admit that it costs about 2k to produce a non precious watch. The Chinese do it for 500 by leveraging their low cost economy, and cutting corners and sell for double.

Answer two - I have never seen a panerai super clone - maybe they exist, only using your own example form post #9678, why anyone would buy a clone is beyond me, but your point on a super clone panerai is valid.

Answer three - who would buy one? You said you had one in post #9682. I respectfully questioned if you did indeed have a superclone. It would appear you do not. No superclones do not use genuine parts. All remanufactured.

Answer four - They make money I am sure, indeed in the video the clone can be spotted but its pretty close. I have seen some sub part finishing genuine one where the service was done by a brute. Pateks I have had had flaws, infact only my old ALS was what I would consider perfect. Still they will only get better and he admits he does not have the best quality fake, its missing the parachrom type spring but better copies have almost exact movement copies. I watched the video, but I think you didnt read my posts. Unlike yourself I don't own a single fake watch, I dislike them for various reasons. However I consider that the technology and know how of the cloners is getting better and better and there will come a time when you wont be able to tell….thats all I said. I have not edited any of my posts beyond correcting typos, and I am not labouring under any illusion that a Rolex is haute horology finished to a standard where exact copies are beyond the realm of believability.

The tools Rolex use, like pretty much everything, are manufactured in China 🤣. The tools they dont have they will copy. I would suggest that the Chinese can get the tools for far less than Rolex and are unconcerned with IP law, worker conditions, paying taxes, dealer networks etc. I think you are conflating cheap fakes with this new breed of replicas. These "super clones" certainly exist and it would appear neither of us has first hand experience of them. By all reports, these replicas would not be of the low quality you suggest.

I think there are a lot of German car manufacturers that have taken to position of underestimating the chinese/asian capacity to manufacture at a high level and are reaping the consequences of that opinion. As somebody who works tangentially in small scale manufacturing I can guarantee you that the technology and cost of high quality production has tumbled. In the last 5 years parts you could only have made in huge expensive production facilities manned by artisans can be produced at similar or better quality by a small team, with minimal experience and skill. Scan the part down to the micron, plug the file into the CAD/CAM machine, 3d printer, SLM machine, 5 axis CNC unit or whatever suits your material, wait an hour and then stick the hundred identical parts it into the automated polisher. After that is just a matter of assembly. They days of having dedicated machines for every process are long dead, and the need to have a wisened swiss gentleman working at that machine to boot. Hell Rolex, up until recently, subcontracted out their springs. What the swiss have is R&D and artistic talent….what the chinese do best is copying, manufacturing and leveraging the economy of scale or the scale of their economy.

There are manufactures that hand finish, and you can tell (Look at 836bets ALS on the photos page, and imagine trying to replicate the hand engraved balance bridge…with custom balanced wheel). That's harder to replicate but not impossible as the Asians have many cheap hands available. Rolex however do not finish anywhere near that level and have left themselves open to these cloners. Dont get me wrong I love a Rolex, have a couple. But they are mass produced watches built for robustness rather than aesthetics.

Not at all, all good discussion, just everyone needs to read what is posted and post what they mean.