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Who are buying all the new houses?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,777 ✭✭✭Allinall


    But they are not being replaced.

    OP's friends and family are still there, living in Lucan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Immigration at these levels “as a solution” is a pyramid scheme. You keep needing more and more immigrants to shore up an ever expanding population, and on and on…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    There aren't enough people in the workforce to provide services today.

    The gap between workforce and retired population is only going to get wider, so immigration has to play a role in keeping the services going.

    There is a balance to be found.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭no.8


    A lack of affordable housing and a stable, regulated rental system with supply also impacts local couples wanting to establish a family. Many accounts of this being the case where couples wish to have more children but simply cannot as they live with one of the grandparents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,003 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    wasn’t it large scale immigration that created the USA……? They are now ‘turning off the tap’ 🚰 and the masses (maga-****) are delighted…🤔…..but for how long…?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No, it isn't. And the fallacy in the argument can be seen if we pretend it's not about immigrants, but about new babies. Do you need more and more new babies to shore up an ever-expanding population? No, you don't.

    What we're talking about here is the dependency ratio: the number of people who are working/producing in the country versus the total number of people in the country. Obviously, the people who are not working/producing have to be maintained, directly or indirectly, by those who are. The people who are not working/producing largely consist of the young, the elderly and the sick/infirm. (If the economy is badly organised or inefficient or in recession you can add to that the people who could work and would like to work, but can't get work. And you can also add people who are legally or socially discouraged from working, or from working as productively as they could — e.g., in the past, married women.)

    So. If the birthrate falls, then all other things being equal 20—25 years later the number of people entering the workforce will fall. The number of people leaving the workforce at that time won't fall so the overall workforce will fall, and the dependency ratio will get worse. Each worker will have to support more non-workers than used to be the case.

    What can you do about this? Well, if you foresee the problem you can adopt measures to discourage a fall in the birthrate in the first place, but (a) it's too late for that now; you should have done it 20 years ago, plus (b) evidence suggests that it's actually very difficult to influence the birthrate through social policies. (That needn't stop you trying, but you would be wise to have a plan B.)

    You can discourage people from leaving the workforce through raising the pension age or cutting retirement benefits. Obviously, that's very unpopular, and therefore politically difficult.

    If you have sufficient foresight you can save during the "fat years" when the workforce is still large — you put a share of taxes/national income into investment funds that you will draw on to sustain the non-workers when the workforce shrinks. Again, if the workforce is shrinking now, or will do very soon, it's too late to do this.

    Or, you can grow the workforce by encouraging immigration of working-age people. This is in fact a very effective way of dealing with the problem, both because it can work more or less immediately and because, in the long run, it's actually more effective than new babies are — a new baby initially makes matters worse, because it adds to the non-working age population for the first 20-25 years of its life. The immigrant has spent the corresponding period of his life in another country, being maintained by that country's workforce.

    But - and this is the key — you don't have to encourage immigration without limit; only so much as is necessary to give you the dependency ratio that you think is optimal. For the reason just pointed out, this actually means fewer than the number of new babies you would have needed to achieve the optimal dependency ratio. And, at the other end, when those immigrants retire, yes, they'll add to the dependency ratio, but so would the new babies when they reached retirement age. And you don't need more immigrants to sustain the dependency ratio unless you've had an inadequate birthrate all along. In which case, you would have needed more immigrants anyway.

    By and large, if your birthrate is low the only way to avoid immigration without increasing the birthrate is to accept a declining population, declining productivity and declining living standards, relative to similar countries that have higher birthrates or receive migrants (or both). Examples of where precisely this is happening right now include Japan, Greece, Bulgaria, Russia and Italy. Countries where they have low birthrates but this isn't happening, partly because they encourage immigration to maintain productivity, include Sweden, Switzerland, Germany and Singapore.

    Ireland from the 1920s to the 1950s is an interesting case. Obviously, we had a high birthrate, but we still had a declining population, and in particular a declining working-age population, because of very high emigration. So the expected consequence - rising dependency ratio; falling productivity; relative decline in living standards - did indeed ensue. We addressed that with economic policies that attracted investment, created job opportunities and therefore reduced emigration. It worked — the Irish dependency ratio fell steadily from the 1950s until 2010, since when it has been rising again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭donaghs


    so, if you disagree, what’s your point in summary?

    Do you agree with immigration at current levels, year on year ? Or not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I was addressing your claim that . .

    You keep needing more and more immigrants to shore up an ever expanding population

    I disagree with that claim. I think it's wrong, for the reasons stated.

    You are now asking an entirely different question:

    Do you agree with immigration at current levels, year on year ? Or not?

    The question seems a little unrealistic, since there's no obvious reason why the 2025 level of immigration should continue year on year, indefinitely, and on the whole it seems unlikely that it will — immigration figures have fluctuated in the past; they are likely to do so in the future.

    So, I think the strict answer is — I don't agree with immigration at current levels, year on year, both in the sense that I don't think there will be immigration at current levels, year on year, and in the sense that I have no particular reason to think that it would be desirable for that to happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    The bath isn’t overflowing because of the tap—it’s because successive governments have been too busy pissing in it for decades, wasting resources on everything but fixing the leaks (inefficient public spending, corruption, and failure to build infrastructure ahead of demand). Turning off the tap (immigration) buys time to bail out the mess and expand the tub properly, without drowning everyone in the process. Your extended analogy assumes we need endless inflow to compensate for a shrinking birthrate, but that just leads to an infinite regression: more people mean more future pensioners, requiring even more immigration later, all while services lag behind. It’s a Ponzi scheme disguised as demographics.

    The real fix isn’t propping up a failing system with uncontrolled imports—it’s incentivizing native births through actual family policies (tax breaks, housing affordability) and reforming pensions so they’re sustainable without relying on perpetual population growth. But sure, keep pretending the tap is the hero while the water turns to sludge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,389 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    The home grown crop would take twenty years to grow,we need a harvest now though.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    It takes too long for the babies to enter the workforce. Weve already missed the boat on that one being the fix.

    Immigration is needed as it solves the services problem overnight but that doesnt mean immigration can't be moderated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭nachouser


    There was a report there a couple of weeks ago on the average number of properties owned by landlords in Ireland. Apparently, there's something like 122 landlords who each own more than 100 properties, making up something like 27% of the entire market. That's a serious problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Lower hhe working age,get the kids working at 12,the victorians were sending them up the chimneys at 7.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,389 ✭✭✭✭kneemos




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭donaghs


    delete



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    Agreed. We need to control immigration.

    I went for a few pints with some Indian friends yesterday in Kilkenny and they were in agreement that housing/services are at a breaking point.

    We need to get strict on who we grant visas to and we need to close the gap on the student visa loopholes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,389 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    If they're getting a visa they're needed obviously.



  • Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Immigration needs to be cut drastically. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that is the case.

    Life is passing by a cohort of Irish people because of this level of immigration. Can’t afford to buy houses, can’t afford to have children.
    And then they are told we need more immigration to keep up our demographics because families are getting smaller.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Why? Because 122 landlords run over a quarter of the rental market. That's not a good thing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,389 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    If they have over a hundred properties they're no doubt corporate landlords who are generally great. Rented at market value albeit high ATM. Not seeing the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,058 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I suggest that reducing the number of work visas should be lower down the list.

    Here are suggestions to reduce other types of immigration.

    (1) aim for zero asylum-seekers. Process their claims much faster, and remove hundreds daily

    (2) return half the UKR refugees while the war is ongoing, to western UKR, and return the other half when the war ends

    (3) stop study visas for, say, ten years, to allow the construction of accomm to catch up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭standardg60


    'Native', 'Irish'. Lads it's not difficult to get the theme of xenophobia here.

    I always feel proud to be Irish when I see the ceremonies of citizenship being bestowed, people who came here completely ignorant of what we are but became happy to embrace and join in once they've experienced what it is.

    They are more Irish than either of you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Immigration restrictions came in the 1920s in the USA. The US still allows large numbers of people to immigrate legally. Unlike previous Democratic presidents, the Biden admin did allow a massive surge in illegal immigration in first years of the presidency, but this has mostly closed off now. The pendulum has swung very far the other way under Trump, precisely because people didnt like the previous alternative. Societies do have a general consensus on immigration, especially more sensitive around illegal immigration, and its wise for mainstream politics to be attuned to this.

    But back to the conversation about whose buying houses in ireland…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Supply AND demand. You can can't just look at one factor - but all of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    The current housing crisis is not the reason we've had 60 years of declining birth rates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    The problem is corporate greed, not immigration.

    Stopping immigration (even if you could) won't drop house prices back to 2016.

    Ireland needs to reform its tax laws on property so that people view a house as a home, rather than an investment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,389 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Supply and demand. Supply shortage in anything leads to higher prices.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    I can’t be a Xenophobe, I know foreign people.



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