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Presidential Election 2025

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.thejournal.ie/what-is-a-military-industrial-complex-6830911-Sep2025/

    "Those implications were and are that the arms industry and its growing importance of a nation’s economic power can lead to undue influence that steers government priorities and policies."

    Good article above which tries to explain where Catherine Connolly was coming from with her comments about the military industrial complex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    No offence, but you should start with the fact you have not watched it before stating that's not what she meant.
    Other posters may misunderstand that you are basing your argument off what you've heard indirectly from people that are almost certainly twisting her words to suit their argument.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,753 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    She has made this point dozens of times outside of the debate, so unless she drastically changed her position in the debate I'm fairly confident that that still isn't what she meant. Her criticism of Germany would make no sense in that context.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    She said it clearly, she said Germany is only one example of a trend across Europe, and she was worried about the military industrial complex. It's a valid concern. She was being grilled about her comments and in my opinion she answered the questions clearly. There wasn't any doubt about what she meant by the end of her contribution on the matter.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,753 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't think anyone would reasonably argue the "military industrial complex" is not a thing in the US. Constantly referencing it in conversation about Europe is the problem - the symbiosis between military and economy here simply does not exist in the same way.

    “Germany is just one of the examples, because they’ve actually said it very openly that that’s what their economy needs and it’s a boost to their economy,” Connolly said. 

    Also this is just a lie.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,891 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    On the mother and baby home thread, he was fully supportive of how the government handled the commission/report and how good the "whitewash" report was. We all know now it was discredited by all academics and survivor groups.

    You might remember the Green leader promised to find out who leaked the report before the survivors got to see it. Never happened. FFG leaked it.

    Zappone was rewarded by FG doing nothing about the Tuam missing babies.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,013 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The empty assertions backed up by nothing are getting sillier and sillier. "The real leader of FF" and "a threat to Martin's position as leader" - nonsense. Ahern was seen off like the old man being pushed out the doof GIF, with not a peep from the party, who quite understanably really don't want FF's role in the economic crash dragged into the forefront again.

    The only sentence there that makes any sense is the last one

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,279 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    CC mentioned the German government of the 1930s. You said that it was not the Nazis, and I asked were you implying that it was the Weimar Republic? The above is not an answer to that question.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Ahern as the real leader of FF is the silliest thing I have seen in weeks. It puts the drone fuss into context. Ahern is so much yesterday's man that he couldn't get two members of the current parliamentary party to nominate him for the contest. He asked a few and got rebuffed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,013 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    She said we don't need an army. What an insult to our men and women who serve.

    As for the rest, ask Trump, but he's not a candidate in this election.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Plenty of articles out there so it definitely is a belief in Germany that spending on defence boosts the economy.
    German leaders woud be well aware, considering their economic slump and car industry struggling.

    https://www.dw.com/en/will-german-military-spending-spree-bring-economic-growth/a-73125966#:~:text=For%20decades%2C%20the%20sector%20had,Ukraine%20to%20boost%20defense%20cooperation


    "Defense spending is a gigantic economic stimulus program," Oliver Dörre, CEO of defense contractor Hensoldt, told DW at an event in Frankfurt in March.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,753 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    And it is broadly supported by the populace of europe. If her concern was that it was being done against the wishes of the people she wouldn't actually have a point and could drop it. Her position is in no way that nuanced. She's simply against any investment in militaries full stop and criticising anyone who does so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,468 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    She explained what she meant by the distinction. A difference between an army and Defence Forces.

    If you can't cope with the clarification (it wasn't really needed because she spoke about support and funding of the Defence Forces in the very same speech the line was plucked out of and the context removed) there isn't much more can be done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,787 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I would like a return to the more demure presidencies we had before MDH. Not these protest candidates. I'm not saying they shouldn't refer problematic bills. But we dont have an executive presidency, so they should be unifying, not divisive. They should represent the whole country, not just a faction.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,753 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This is economic commentary. It is not "Germany has said this is why they are doing it". Because they haven't. She has completely invented that.

    The german ambassador had to finally come out explicitly stating this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭deezell


    Yes she did. And its fair to resent being labelled with a term just because you're not politically radicalised. My point is, she used the term as a put down, as an insult, as a term of inferiority to her Marxist quasi nationalist radical outlook, and like her, I use that description as a put down. The difference is, it's a substantially fitting description, whereas she choose to insult ALL voters, of whom she knows nothing, with a label straight out of far left-right handbook of ten best descriptions of voters who don't agree with you. She's already insulted the entire nation of Germany (a nation which still has an occupying US military force stationed there 80 years later, so you can put Israeli withdrawal in your pipe and smoke it). Keep the put downs coming CC, we'll put down a 1 and 2 as far from your name as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Worries that rearmament, driven by arms manufacturers, would lead to another war like the Great War or worse, were common in Britain in the 1930s. Such fears had largely but not totally disappeared by early 1939.

    Those who cite history should first learn it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,013 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    This "not an army" thing she keeps coming out with is ridiculous. We have an army. Why she continually denies an absolute fact is a mystery.

    Irish waters and airspace are ten times the size of our landmass, we are almost entirely blind to what is happening in that space never mind being able to do anything about it. Great news for the European cocaine market, even if you just dismiss the Russian threat out of hand for whatever reason.

    If a war escalates it'll be far too late then for Germany or anyone else to start thinking about defensive rearmament at that stage. As it is we are looking at lead times of years to get the equipment we are currently planning to buy, because every democratic country in Europe is trying to buy arms at the same time. For one very obvious (to everyone except Catherine) reason.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,856 ✭✭✭liamtech


    German rearmament post Russia/Ukraine cannot be credibly compared to the 1930s. Im going to try and outline why below. I left DCU International Relations nearly two decades ago, so I have doubts about my ability to explain this adequetly, but i will try. I welcome discussion and debate on this topic, and of course feel free to criticize me.

    Late 1920s - 1933

    German militarization in the 1930s, which did technically begin prior to the NAZI seizure of power, was a response to said state having been neutered post WW1. We could go through the differing political factions prior to 33, but they all had their reasons. They ranged from correcting the perceived injustice of Versaille, to wanting Germany to re-assert its power and be able to balance against the old foe, France. Regardless of what faction people belonged to, there was widespread support for re-arming and re-asserting Germany as a power player.

    Anyone who doubts this, please familiarize yourself with the Deutschland Class cruiser, popularly known as the 'Pocket Battleship'. It was a clear fudge of Versailles restrictions on German Naval power. A cruiser size vessel, that could fit within the tonnage restriction level of the treaty, but armed to the teeth, so as to be comparable to a Battleship. The designs for these go back to the late 20s, and the first ship of this class was under construction in 1929. They represent a clear breach of the 'spirit' of the Versaille treaty, while technically adherring to it.

    Hitler came to power, and the goal for the NAZI's was expansionism. We all know the history, so I wont recount it here. But suffice it to say, they accelerated Military Rearming, and began to openly cotravene the Versaille. The rest is history.

    2022 to Present

    Germany, since reunification has always maintained a well trained army referred to as a Defence force. Broadly speaking, there has always been a reluctance in Germany to offer greater funding to the Military. Put simply, aside from a few obvious bad actors in German Politics, the population is rather pacifistic in nature. They have their defence force, they have NATO membership and guarantees. They are covered by the NATO Nuclear deterrence. That is more or less satisfying to most in Germany.

    After the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the unprecidented threat of a land based war in Europe, public and political opinion began to shift, regarding the German Military and its Defense industry. While a large chunk of the population remained very reluctant to bolster military spending, they could no longer credibly claim there was no actual need to do so. The European Union obviously moved to begin funding and arming the Ukraine, but this was not without setbacks. Many European Militarys relied heavily on US manufactured equipment. Without wanting to get into too much technical talk; When you buy US military hardware, you do so for your own defence. You cannot then turn around and 'sell it on' to other countries, as the US has a vested interest in determining who has access to their hardware. This was just one limiting factor when it came to funding and supplying the Ukraine.

    And this is where the call within Germany, to begin bolstering its own domestic Military Hardware sector comes from. Putting it really simply, if Germany devolops its own hardware, then it is the state that gets to decide who may use it. When you combine these facts, with obvious growing isolationism in the US, regardless of MAGA, the call for bolstering the German Military Hardware industry becomes all the more sound. Support from the US for the Ukraine, is entirely dependent on domestic political meanderings, and you only have to open a single Online News outlet, today, to see how unstable US domestic politics is. While Europeans are, for the most part, united in wishing to support the Ukraine, and see it weather this conflict and emerge strong, the US can make no guarantee of agreeing to this. At any moment, the current occupant of the Oval office could simply decide to cease offering support to Kyiv, and we have seen this occur numerous times since Trumps second term began.

    The call for an enlargement of Germanys Military Hardware sector becomes quite vocal with the above as a backdrop. But there remains vocal opposition to this, with one large argument against it being that of Economics. The basic claim is/was, that Germany cannot afford to waste money on military hardware, thereby defunding domestic and social issues.

    The answer to this, was to point out that it could be economically beneficial to Germany, and Europe, for the German Military sector to expand. Not only would it allow continued support for Ukraine, but it could eek out a portion of the global arms trade, and provide hardware to those whom the Americans, for what ever reason, are reluctant to trade with. It could, roughly, fund itself; and any investment that the German Tax-payer makes to the sector, would be returned with interest.

    This last point is where Catherine Connolly, has put the horse before the cart; Its not that Germany is trying to increase its economic wealth by creating a 'Military Industrial Complex'- Its that Germany needs to economically justify investing in its armament sector, so as to appease those critics of the policy.

    A vocal debate could be had on this, regarding what constitutes a Military Industrial Complex, and whether one will emerge from this period in Germany. We could also debate whether or not, what I am stating is merely defending the inevitable creation of such a complex. The long term consequences are unclear too, so we could all debate this.

    What we ABSOLUTELY cannot do - and what Catherine Connolly has done - is try to compare this to the 1930s -

    In the 20/30s, Germany was at a crossroads. Its people had grown up in a military dictatorship under the Kaiser. Yes there was a parliament, but the German Military was incredibly strong, as was the power of the Kaiser. After WW1, the counrty was hobbled. And while there were growing amounts of pacifists and proto liberals who did not wish to return to the 'old ways', a majority of people wanted the country to assert itself. Militarily. They wished for a return to a more powerful Germany, that could influence politics on the European continent. Really, this only served to assist the NAZIS in seizing power. It wasnt clear to all that Hitler wished for Military expansion, rather than merely re-empowering Germany as a state; but enough support remained for the later, to ensure that conflict was inevitable. The rest is history.

    In 2020s, Germans do not want re-armament, they abhor it based on their history of these types of policies. The economic argument is simply a way of providing a more favourable cost analysis of rearming, so that at least the people can see it making monetary sense.

    Comparing the attitudes of these two periods is foolish and weak. And lacks all credibility.

    Interested to hear peoples take - I can provide links to the above, but really if you have followed politics in europe, since 2022, all of this should be clear.

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    You should really listen to what she actually said.
    At 8:15 in the video she clearly states when decisions are made to invest in the military there should be an honest discussion with the people of what is being done here.
    I've bookmarked the two main points in the debate where this was discussed below for convenience for anyone that wants to listen to what she actually said about it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,583 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Jim Gavin now at 4/1 in a three horse race for the Àras.

    IMG_2385.jpeg

    The same odds as the two horse race for a United Ireland!

    IMG_2386.jpeg

    🤔🙄

    “Wrap the green flag round me boys,
    To die were far more sweet,
    With Erin's noble emblem boys,
    To be my winding sheet,
    In life I loved to see it wave
    And follow where it led”

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,787 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    The idea that there is a globally controlled, autonomous "Military Industrial Complex", rather than different ones in different countries, is daft. Shes not saying that the Western and Russian arms industries are controlled by the same individuals is she?

    If the West disarmed it would not cause Russia to disarm. There was a disarmament conference in the 1930s and Hitler pulled out of it. The disarmament by the British until 1938 encouraged Hitler to make more and more demands. The West was unable to deter him.

    Deterrence, not weakness, is the way to prevent future wars. And in that context, lives will be saved. Not by not producing them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,125 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    spot on.. we don’t need a mouthpiece in the Aras. Government and opposition are the peoples mouthpiece.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Thank you for that.

    All of it is absolutely clear to every reasonable person. The German Embassy are issuing statements to the media refuting Connolly's comments. She herself is backing away from them. It is only a small subset of posters on here who are sticking by it.

    It has damaged her campaign, that much is clear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,013 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Well he would say that, wouldn't he. He has a vested interest in talking up the economic benefits.

    It should be mentioned there's a large enough caucus in Germany coalesced around the Free Democratic Party which is more or less opposed to more government spending on anything - infrastructure, welfare, you name it. The "schwartze zero" (black zero) or "ordoliberal" crowd who refuse to countenance a government deficit under any circumstances.

    Under the first Merkel cabinet they got a "debt brake" amendment to the German constitution passed tightly restricting government borrowing. Infrastructure was neglected and the German armed forces were run down with major cuts.

    The debt brake was eventually amended in 2022 and again this year to permit more spending.

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,013 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,468 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well, she clarified what she meant. There needed to be a clarification made to describe the difference between the two.
    You can't handle that, that's on you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,583 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    So basically Connolly instead of contextualising the two differences in time and place. Used a false equivalency fallacy.

    And yet CC still ahead of Jim Gavin as he struggles early in the first half. Reeling from the hard shoulder CC gave JG on the “military issues” line.

    It doesn’t say much for Gavin does it? It appears that CC is marking JG out of it so far in political terms. Diametrically opposed to each other. Meanwhile Humphreys is left free, heading towards goal, as the ball loops towards her.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Is there an opinion poll, or is that just your opinion?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 781 ✭✭✭feelings


    She is absolutely not against investment in our defence forces. If you can’t be truthful why bother the discussion?

    Connolly has been very clear and she’s said more than once that our Defence Forces have been neglected, that conditions must be improved, and that she has no difficulty with spending more. What she does argue is that investment has to be balanced against other urgent needs like housing, and that the public deserves an open and honest discussion about those choices.



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