It's over

Prodigy ended up a good show too.

So your against everything that Star Trek is and has always been from the beginning then? Are you really a Star Trek fan? Maybe it's Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica or even B5 you should be watching? Maybe you might enjoy them more. Star Trek was Woke before Woke was a word. If it's not being that then it is not Star Trek. Yes some of the more recent shows have been very in the face but it just needs to go back to not being so in ones face but still have wonderful and diverse crews be they human or alien.

The only point of reference i can bring is what happened to another great franchise i have watched as a kid.

Doctor who.

If you are not a fan, please forgive me, but there is a point to this detour

My daughter also got into DrWho, and it was absolutely brilliant to be able to sit down with her, and get stuck into new who. She never fully connected with the classic show, but was interested enough in the lore, to watch a few choice episodes (Genesis, the Chase, Dalek invasion of earth, the Tenth Planet)

We were both very enthusiastic, and she was thrilled that Jodie Whitaker was going to be the first Female doc! Then, the writing nose dived. I kept my mouth shut, for a while, because honestly watching it with her became our weekly ritual, but i sensed she was disconnecting from it. When it came to the notorious 'Timeless Child Retcon' - namely that the writer decided to retcon the entire show, so that the first doctor was no longer the first doctor - We both reacted with scorn.

And it went downhill from there, so much so that when tennant arrived back she correctly clocked that it was fan bait. The show became something we began to ridicule,and we both disconnected in Gatwa's first season. The storys were dull, RTD seemed hellbent on making it overtly camp, and when we looked online, there was a world of hate coming from both sides of the culture war. RTD had successfully dragged a favourite SciFi franchise into the polarized world of modern day politics. And for me, that killed it.

What annoys me is that critical but well intentioned voices tend to be conflated with bigotry. There was one episode which summed it all up for me. The Doc and co arrive on a planet which is literally consumed by social media. But while everyone remains oblivious to whats going, something or someone is going around knocking off the population, literally in aphabetical order! And the Doctor is trying to warn them, and they literally ignore him. I remember being REALLY into this episode, classic sci fi nerd style. Because i am a nerd, and i cant help but theorize! What is going on, why cant they see the doctor as an ally, why are they oblivious to the deaths happening among them. WHAT IS going in here!

Well, low and behold they dont listen to the doctor because they are all racists, and they prefer to die, than accept help from a person of Colour.

It was totally farcical. RTD clearly has strong opinions, 99% of which i agree with. But honestly if he wants to do a show which attacks supposed systemic racism, Doctor who is HARDLY the medium for that message. The reaction online was staggering too. Half of the audience felt similar to me, that it was a ridiculous bait and switch, of what was actually a decent concept. But then the other side argued that if you had a problem with this episode, then YOU are the problem in society.

I could go on and on about this - Davros showed up no longer in his travel machine because seemingly RTD felt it was derogatory toward wheelchair users - Tedious nonsense, honestly.

This relates to Star Trek because i have seen examples of entire shows, and plots, being dragged into modern day political messaging. The Gender Neutral Discovery Crewmember - no issue that they are gender neutral. But honestly, she/they stated it, move on. But instead we have a full section within the show devoted to other crew members repeatidly using THEY overtly - it was about as subtle as being hit over the head with a mallet. Clearly the show began to prioritize this messaging, over actual story telling. And while it can be done correctly, with some subtlty, the writers seemed destined to go entirely the oposite route. And it was a big part of Discovery's slide down the ranks for me.

Having the president of earth played by a well known woke democrat - the writers knew that was going to cause division. Yes, were i an american, i would obviously vote democrat - but FFS, im watching STAR TREK!!! Can i please TUNE OUT the culture war, for a few hours a week. For the love of sanity and star trek, just WRITE a sci fi story that we can all get behind!

I only wish that the writers could prioritize story telling, for story tellings sake - Thats why we tune in each week. To be entertained. Not to be lectured to - And i say that as someone who is very liberal, albeit not one who could be considered woke.

Just write a story, have a point, surprise the audience with your skills as a sci fi writer. Have it be that we walk away, day-dreaming about the plot, and wondering will it come back up! This is a arena for creativity. But if you bait and switch, have a brilliant plot point, and a mysterious villain - and then have the villain be motivated by 'systemic racism', or 'the patriarchy', or 'homophobia' - understand that even though i agree with you, and know full well that these things are wrong - im not entertained. Im not going to rewatch, and if you keep doing it, you will lose me as a viewer - just as doctor who did.

Its a complicated topic, and i dont want to drag our Trek community into the mud - but those are my thoughts -

I questioned whether to respond at all -

I did feel that the 'modern day political messaging' deserved mention - i have, for a while now, wanted to get a feel for where we stood on this? I truly dont like it. I just wanna watch some sci fi, and forget about life for a while. I also cant help feeling that its pointless. If someone has the opposite political leanings, they are not going to watch a few episodes of a Star Trek, and suddenly change their minds. Id rather sit down with someone of the opposite political camp, and for a few hours a week, discuss star trek. We could disagree on a lot elsewhere, but lets talk shop. Best of Both Worlds? or in the Pale Moonlight - The world is hellbent on driving us apart, lets come together for trek -

As for the rest of us, who are probably singing from the same hymn sheet as the writers? Well i can only speak for myself, but when im lectured to about topics that i already mostly agree with - its tedious, boring, and i tune out. I dont mind messaging in sci fi - but it needs to be subtle, and trek USED to be good at that. But it has lost its way, and just like Doctor Who, its being dragged into modern day politics which is toxic on both sides-

It hasnt been as big an issue in SNW which im thankful for

Re Dukat's crime. It probably would have been something like violating the D in DMZ, or at least just more overtly than both sides already were, or renegging on some other treaty. I don't remember any actual warcrimes being committed by the Cardassian/Dominion/(Breen) alliance, there were however one or two committed against them. Even the Breen sneak attack focused on a legitimate target, Starfleet HQ.

Couldn’t agree more the constant prequels feel like they’re just recycling the same ground. SNW is well done but enough’s enough, it’s high time they pushed the timeline forward again. The TNG/DS9 era had so much scope for proper storytelling without relying on nostalgia.

"Obviously the Defiant is the most well known, but also the Intrepid class, we saw more Nebula class variants with emphasis on extra phaser and photon torpedo banks. I might get some of the names wrong, but the Sabre and Akirea??** class? Stemrunner class."

Yes thay are right. Just need to fix the spelling mistakes also the Norway class as well.

"And i agree with your assessment, the Federation would have fought back no doubt, but it would have been a far bloodier affair, had the Federation not received the wakeup call at Wolf 359 - I always remember Q's words from Q-Who"

Yes Great words by Q and as Picard said Q done them a favour by bringing them to the Borg early.

My heart sinks a little every time they announce a prequel. I would love to see the timeline progressed passed Picard season 3. If I had my way, there would be a show following on from that season set on board the Enterprise G with Seven as her Captain.

I think i would probably agree with you both. It is staggering to watch SNW at times. Iv indicated before, i believe it has delivered us several epics, and several more near-epic episodes. And unlike Disco, these episodes remain untarnished by season long story arcs. I can sit down and watch these episodes at any point, and still enjoy them.

I can understand feeling less confident moving forward, given the decline in quality that most of us have seen. I remember my enthusiasm for Disco in the early days, and how let down i felt when the show deteriorated. And yet, like you DoctorEdgeWild - I remain hopeful that SNW can still offer more in the time it has left. If this thread were mainly about SNW i would defend it, based on my hope that it will occassionally deliver us an epic!

But as a franchise, i am worried about star trek. To my knoweldge the only confirmed Series which is upcoming is the Starfleet Academy show, set in the discovery 32nd Century Era - To say that i have no interest in this, would be a huge understatement. I literally loath Discovery's contribution to the franchise, and anything that continues its legacy, is unwelcome to me. Its astonishing when i remember viewing ST Enterprise as Treks worst series. And genuinely believing that nothing could ever promote it from absolute bottom. Where as I felt sorry for Enterprise, as a missed oppertunity, Discovery ended up infuruiating me. ST-Enterprise now seems far better than it actually was, in comparison.

Aside from the Academy show, we have the possibility of another JJTrek movie - no interest at all. I view the JJ-Verse as NOT trek, so i wont be tuning in. The much discussed 'Trek Anthology' show seems to have vanished from discussion. And despite teasing a Captain 7of9 of the Enterprise G series, that also looks dead in the water.

If the choice was more Disco adjacent crap, or for the franchise to bow out - im sorry, i would probably prefer the later. For me I only have to look at Doctor who, and Star Wars to see what happens when things are continually dragged on, and quality deteriorates. One of my friends is a Star Wars fanatic, and to say he was burned by Disney's purchase of lucasfilm, would be an understatement - He has trouble now even remembering the good old days of two George Lucas trilogys - He has literally scrubbed Disney from his Star Wars database, with the possible exception of Rogue One.

Im the same with Trek at this point - Bits of Picard were ok, and SNW is the only hope, even with only 16 episodes left - Heres hoping it goes out with a bang

Its a tough topic for a fan to discuss. I think with Star Wars it was purely bad writers, with bad writing incentives, and a general change in ideology within Disney. I wouldnt spend hours hating on Kathleen Kennedy, but she does take a large share of the blame. I think the money was there, and remains available - but they do seem hellbent on hiring writers who prioritize modern political issues, over story-telling. I never watched the MCU, but seemingly there are elements of the same deterioration in writing.

I feel more dismayed and a tad bitter about Doctor who. My daughter never got into Star Trek, which was always a bit dissapointing to me. But she really loved Doctor who, and it seemed never in doubt that she would be a fan for life. Horrific writing, bad production decisions, and showrunners who decided that staying true to canon was 'too restricting on their creativity' - We both watched as the show was undone - and the tedious messaging was infuriating.

My daughter is a fantastic environmentalist, which is a source of pride for me. But then doctor who decided to do 'yet another bait and switch' - Doctor and co land on a planet, infested by alien menaces - but low and behold, they are actually humans, the planet is earth, and global warming caused all of this - they even went as far as to call the aliens 'the dregs' - Pure insanity as a story telling decision, but this was happening week on week, and the above episode was ridiculed by my daughter.

Hopefully Star Trek pulls through, and even if we just get 15 more episodes - maybe a few decent ones, il be happy. I still havent watched Section 31, and i am unlikely to watch Academy. If SNW is the 'finale' of 35 years of trek for me - thats fine.

And new trek can just leave me out, for as the great man said

And they might have been right. We dont know I think.

But the Dominion could have easily sent a fleet in orbit and opened communications about telling the colonists to fcuk off and not commit an act of genocide instead.