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Charlie Kirk.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 973 ✭✭✭greyday




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They were open mic events on student campuses.

    The fact that the killer of Kirk came from a Republican family and was radicalised on such a campus only goes to show how important the work Charlie and others are doing is — by attempting to have open debates with these people and hopefully save a few souls before they go on to destroy their lives by murdering others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,128 ✭✭✭Homelander


    It was his opinion that the huge focus on DEI hires a few years ago would make him question things he never at all questioned before. That is not particularly racist, in fact it's not even illogical, whether you believe it to be completely false or having some merit.

    If a workplace suddenly mandated that 50% of all new hires in a female dominated field like nursing that 50% of all hires had to be men - would you claim someone was sexist if they voiced an opinion that could possibly lead to a short-term decline in quality in order to hit a metric?

    Charlie Kirk's opinions can be broadly counter-argued by simple logic in that it would be impossible for, not to mention of no benefit to any company whatsoever, to hire unqualified people in highly qualified, specialist positions like a doctor or pilot.

    The idea that an airline or hospital would hire someone at that level based primarily on the color of their skin is completely incompatible with logic.

    As for the more "normal" jobs, I have no idea, wouldn't argue for or against, but the basic principle that heavy focus on DEI hires could potentially lead to lower quality to some degree is not some insanely illogical talking point.

    There really is no need to misrepresent or boil it down into he thought black people were inferior or black people shouldn't be doctors or pilots, those are never arguments he opened or defended.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Again, surely the students were aware of this before grabbing the mike? Do they have internet access so they could prepare for the encounters? Isn't Kirk a college drop-out? (I'm not putting any weight on that, I mean it didn't exactly hold Michael O'Leary or Bill gates back, but some like to use it as an insult, and he hadn't proved his intellectual prowess through passing exams, unlike presumably some of his debate opponents).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 973 ✭✭✭greyday


    Cox said he was radicalised after leaving college.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He didnt as such, he dropped out of Community College.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And where do you think that began?

    He hardly went to a starbucks and got in with a few far left nutters, Colleges are hot beds of far left lunancy, that was evident from the videos Charlie uploaded where he attempted to challenge these ideologies.

    But either in or out of college, the danger of the radicalised far left is evident



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    can anybody answer why the most important subject these days is trans, lgbt and whatever and other minorities?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because they are what the far left support, and politics these days are left or right and if you dont support the left you are a NAZI, Facist, and a Racist so they say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,815 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Some people need to be able to blame them for everything so will twist any topic into "THE LGBT DID IT"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 973 ✭✭✭greyday


    I assume cox would not hesitate to blame the college if he could, he mentioned the dark world of the Internet radicalised him after leaving college.

    I am not arguing about it but if Cox is to be used as a source of evidence then we should stick to what he says .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,376 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    They need to distract people from economic inequality.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,537 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    They're students though. You know…kids…who often haven't even formed truly solid opinions and are still exploring them to a large degree.

    But this kind dog and pony show is beloved of certain characters on the right. They go to colleges and argue with easy targets and make dubious claims about their own intellectual prowess in carefully edited YouTube videos that they push out to their audience. Kirk's fellow traveller, Ben Shapiro, is the same type.

    But when they come up against someone who's actually spent a bit of time refining their arguments they're all at sea because they aren't dealing with college kids.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,893 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    The students know they are going to be involved in the debate but are not experienced in such events. Generally kirk and similar online personalities like crowder and Shapiro give the students five minutes to debate them and they debate many students over the day. Kirk and co. are doing theses public events all the time on the same subjects so of course have the advantage. They sometimes get shown up like Kirk did in his uk event or Shapiro did when he had an interview with Andrew Neil and stomred out as Neil had some knowledge of what Shapiro had written/said in the past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,190 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Because by focusing on wedge issues, tiny % of the population whose existence rarely impacts upon anyone else.
    Wider societal inequities are pushed down the list of what makes the headlines whilst those wedge issues drive the news cycle.
    By demonising a small group and making them scapegoats for the ills of society?
    Greater wrongs go unchallenged.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,128 ✭✭✭Homelander


    I don't know where we get the idea that Kirk was a fraud debater or masquerading as a fake intellectual because he only debated with students and young people.

    He debated students and young people because his whole career and organization was centered on building up a stronger conservative/republican movement within the younger generation.

    That was the stated goal and he was very successful in that regard, hence why he was a very important asset to the Republican party.

    So it doesn't particularly make sense to me to be critical of that aspect of his popularity, and that's not even mentioning the fact that there are any amounts of hyper-intelligent students capable of high-level debate.

    Charlie Kirk didn't always win but to a point in most cases it can be boiled down to a deadlock of fundamental difference of political opinion rather than there being any objective truth anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,893 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Because conservatives spend alot of their time attacking these groups. Conservatives want to limit the rights of lgbtq people, women (abortion rights), and limit the number of minorities in the country. Its a wedge issue that wins them votes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,893 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I didnt say he was a fraud I just said the debates are heavily stacked in his favour. I had a lot more respect for Christopher Hitchens who would debate atheism with fellow intellectuals, Christian apologists, and religious leaders.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,128 ✭✭✭Homelander


    Christopher Hitchens would engage in intellectual debate for the sake of intellectual debate and education.

    Charlie Kirk's aim was to build up the conservative/republican movement within the younger generation - something he did quite well.

    They are two totally different type of speakers realistically.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,537 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Because the right wing have to manufacture mickey mouse issues into grossly exaggerated crises, because they'd never get elected on their true polices which is largely about consolidating a nation's wealth amongst the already wealthy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,893 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    True one wanted a challenge. The other wanted to win the debate with less of a challenge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Is there? Why wasn't there riots after white people drying to cops of a different colour? Or Asians?

    This guy may have acted alone but it seems he's a supporter of far left ideologies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭aero2k


    But kids who are old enough to vote, join the army, etc. Surely some of the college students should have been able for Kirk, since his schtik is so repetitive and predictable (at least the bits I've seen). And, as someone else pointed out, lots of people would have been videoing this stuff on phones so it's surprising there aren't a few videos of US students owning Charlie Kirk.

    Like or loath Kirk, people like him provide a service in giving a target for people to form truly solid opinions around, even if only to oppose him.

    Just btw, I think everyone, not just kids, should be still exploring their own opinions, especially the truly solid ones. I've changed my mind on a lot of things over the years due to being confronted by superior arguments. No doubt I'll change others in future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,815 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    But some are lauding Kirk as being a supreme intellectual with a magnificent debating skill, he was looking for easy soundbites to boost his image.

    Theres a reason he died on his arse when he left America for debates when his buzzwords and cheer cues didn't work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,605 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    I've never heard of him before he died, but is it not the case

    *He started debating on his late teens.

    *He had no college education; certainly not when he started.

    Irrespective of what he said,and I've heard none of his debates, that takes balls for a very young man.

    He would have had an experience advantage as the years went on, but it's very likely he has an intellect disadvantage at every university he turned up to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,190 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Ah come on now. The murder of a citizen by an officer or representative of the state is a very different proposition in terms of the power dynamics at play, than the murder of a public figure or politician (Particularly of the governing power) by a citizen.

    In terms of the 1st example the driver of protest and riot is a belief that the State will close ranks to protect its own.
    In a functional democracy, that fear should not arise and where it does, protest, media and external investigation should allay any perceived need for riot.
    Yet in the US?
    It all too often becomes confrontation, and theres a history as to why.
    The community of the murdered citizen often believes that without radical action, the victim wont get justice.
    The community feels unheard and that results in violent outburst.

    With the murder of a member of the in-group, a person intimately linked with the controlling power?
    The need for protest to gain justice is immediately lessened as those in Power will confirm that everything possible to ensure the perpetrator is brought to justice will be done.
    In the case of Kirk's murder the FBI Director himself travelled to Utah and confirmed that any and all support needed to track down the killer would be made available.
    The media, the local law enforcement and the full power of the federal state were immediately brought to bear to track the killer down.

    In the 1st example, the community resorts to riot when they believe that the victim has been murdered and that the state is not only tardy in investigating but may be actively trying to cover up a murder to protect officers of the state.
    As such any target for their ire becomes the state, hence protests starting at police station, courts and civic buildings, locations of government.

    In the 2nd example, the victim's community knows that as they are the group in power that every apparatus of the state will be brought to bear.
    In the example of Kirk, whilst many people were calling for violent retribution against the left?
    The question must be asked, other than revenge, for what purpose and against whom?
    1st group rails against the state for right or wrong.
    Who does the 2nd group target to vent their spleen and indeed other than revenge?
    Whats the aim of any violent action undertaken by the 2nd group?

    Its an overused trope but, "Riot is the language of the unheard" and nobody is managing to not hear MAGA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 680 ✭✭✭DrPsychia


    Where did you read that modern DEI is state or federal mandated quota for diversity hiring?
    Please provide me a link or else you're just spouting nonsense. Yes there were old DEI provisions from the 1970's I believe, but that was due to interpretations of affirmative action which have been ruled illegal by the US Supreme Court for years. Affirmative action was created for a time where open racism was deeply entrenched. A lot of red states are still deeply racist but it was far worse and more widespread back then.

    I wish you would look at the actual messages that Kirk was delivering. He was telling his audience that black DEI is suspect, black leaders are corrupt, and the very laws that ensured black people's civil rights were a mistake.

    To your point on nursing. The reason fields like aviation and medicine were historically dominated by white males was because other groups excluded due to segregation, discrimination, and lack of access. Modern DEI, from what I understand, is intended to counteract centuries of injustice in the U.S. Nursing was always female dominated because it has never had the same barriers that medicine or aviation had.

    I'll paraphrase one of your paragraphs…

    "It would be impossible to hire unqualified people like a doctor or pilot."

    Good man, you made my next point for me. Cheers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 504 ✭✭✭briangriffin


    I'm sure the police have spoken to the family though, I'm sure the family have told police about his perspective on life and whether that has changed radically or not. Maybe it hasn't maybe isn't right or left just a very ill man. It makes more sense given what the Governor has said and given his target and his relationship to deduce he was left more than right leaning in his views, which or whether is immaterial to the point I was making here. The tolerant left wing posters here are dismissing anyone who suggests he is left wing as conspiracy theorists and at the same time going off on mad tangents about the far right. You can't have it both ways. Objectively the assassination of someone for their opinions is wrong by any metric but its being justified as Karma and God's will here by posters who proclaim their tolerance and virtue and denounce the demonic ideals of the conservative right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Marcos


    Apparently doing a google word search for trans before the Occupy Wall St protests, you know the ones saying "we are the 99%"? Then if you do the same word search after those protests there is a huge increase. It's almost like this is a wedge issue pushed to create division.

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,537 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Just because the legalities of a nation declares that a person can vote or waste their lives in a war doesn't mean that have the wherewithal to counter another's argument or point.

    People of college going age are still learning (I'd argue that we should be endevouring to study and learn all of our lives) and more often than not haven't had the time to fully explore a given topic to the fullest extent, which is perfect natural.

    So there's no reason to assume that college kids would be prepared to counter Charlie Kirks points which, as far as I have discerned, were largely mantras designed to appeal to people who already adhered to those mantras.



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