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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    People who are comfortable with who they are and who don’t have to hate on all things Irish to make them feel more British.
    People who can accept there are other stories from the conflict/war and before it.
    People who aren’t living under sieges in their own heads.

    Ordinary decent people who want to stay in the UK but who accepted long ago that if a maiority want unity so be it.

    Moderate people



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well if somebody at those cross community events tried weaponising their anti Irish stchick the way it is blatantly done here they’d be politely asked to leave and it wouldn’t be me doing the asking.

    *I don’t see it as work btw



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    “*I don’t see it as work btw”

    I’ll complement you anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Geographically everyone born on the continent of America is American. Politically they are not. Someone from Canada is not American, they do not have an American passport, they do not call themselves American etc. They are Canadian.

    Ireland is represented on the what is known as the British Flag, the Union Jack. Of course people from the island of Ireland can be British. And if you live in N. Ireland you get your British social welfare, use British currency everyday etc.

    Geographically everyone born in Ireland is Irish. Politically they are not. Many people from N. Ireland have British passports, British pensions, they use the £ British currency, they pay their taxes to the British Revenue etc. Of course they are British ( or "United Kingdomers" but "British" for short).

    The large island of Hispaniola in the Caribbean is divided in to 2 countries, Haiti and the Dominican Republic. People there are either Haitan or Dominican. Nobody is Hispaniolian.

    Before you object FrancieBrady, you are Irish. You live outside the UK, pay your taxes to the Irish Revenue etc. Nobody is claiming you as anything other than Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    FrancieBrady has told us what he means by a moderate unionist. Personally, I think you downcow are a moderate unionist : I am genuinely surprised that FrancieBrady does not think you are a moderate unionist.

    FrancieB thinks moderate unionists are "People who are comfortable with who they are and who don’t have to hate on all things Irish to make them feel more British." If that is the case, perhaps moderate nationalists are "people who are comfortable with who they are and who don’t have to hate on all things British to make them feel more Irish"?

    To put the shoe on the other foot, I wonder could we define what a "moderate nationalist" is. To me, it is one who did not support the pIRA / INLA armed struggle campaign. A moderate nationalist is someone who condemns the paramilitaries but still wants a 32 county Ireland by democratic means. SF voters tend to condone the IRA and say there was "no alternative": these are not moderate nationalists. Moderate nationalists would be more the SDLP voters, and some alliance.

    Does FrancieBrady pass the litmus test in being a moderate nationalist?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    "Geographically everyone born on the continent of America is American. Politically they are not. Someone from Canada is not American, they do not have an American passport, they do not call themselves American etc. They are Canadian"

    First of all the americas consist of two Geographical continents, North America and and South America. People from Canada are North American

    "The large island of Hispaniola in the Caribbean is divided in to 2 countries, Haiti and the Dominican Republic. People there are either Haitan or Dominican. Nobody is Hispaniolian"

    The difference between Ireland and hispaniola is the inhabitants of Ireland is a nation of people while Hispaniolan is not one nation of people. People from Ireland share the same NATIONAL patron saint. This is British tradition too. We play national sports as one nation like rugby cricket basketball hockey. There isn't an indigenous language of Hispaniola that nearly every place name drives from. There isn't indigenous sports that are played throughout Hispaniola. Under british tradition the UK is a union of different nations one of which is Ireland. It is this denial of having no national identity of irish and reeks of bigotry and even doesn't make sence to only have one British identity as the UK is a union of nations.

    Noone has ever answered this question. Ever met a person from England who says they're not English but only British?

    Under your logic if there is a UI tomorrow then everyone in Ireland is immediately is irish and not British because national identity is only clinging to arbitrary jurisdiction boundary lines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    SDLP swore allegiance to the anti Catholic English Crown- like FF did-

    How can that be moderate to a Catholic Republican-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    You say "People from Canada are North American". No such thing as a North American Passport in itself., and North American is not a nationality in itself. There is no "North American" army in itself, or "north American" government in itself.

    If you bump in to some people from Canada and ask them where they are from, they will say Canada / they are Canadian. If you try to insist to them they are American, you will be told in no uncertain terms they are most definitely not. They do not want to be known as American just as many people in N. Ireland do not want to be known as simply "Irish", because that can be confusing for some people from around the world as most Irish use a different currency, have different passport, pay their taxes to a different government, are protected by different armed forces, get their pension from different jurisdiction etc. On holidays around the world if I say I am from Ireland people often have asked which bit, the north or the south. They think of Ireland as an island, wonder if I am from N. Ireland or the other bit. I suppose if someone said to me they were north American I would ask them which bit of North America are they from too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Canada is part of the north American continent in the same way Ireland is part of the European continent. Continent are geographical terms not states so yes no such think as having a citizenship of a continent. Whats is your point. Is that you think you can only refer to people as being from the state where they have citizenship? Don't be silly. You hear people being reffered to as African, European, asian south american or north amercan everyday of the week.

    Again noone is saying NI is not part of the UK state. But it is part of Ireland where the irish nation comes from hence why we have the same NATIONAL patron saint and play many national sports as one nation. Denying you're irish reeks of bigotry and whats even sader for the "i am not irish i am only british" brigade that people actually from Britain refer to you as Irish. And no suprise there. They know the meaning of the union and the british flag unlike you whos bigotry cant comprehend its meaning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    yes, that seems fair. And Francie is a long way from reaching that bar



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    you are telling us that anyone living on the British nainland, who does not describe themselves as British, is displaying bigotry - I couldn’t agree with that narrow minded thinking.
    And I am associating with my place of birth. I am northern Irish!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Francie got wound up earlier with another poster and told them clearly that he was not from the north of Ireland. You are telling us that makes him a bigot, and that he is from the north of Ireland and is northern Irish. I think it’s you is displaying the bigotry. I have no problem with Francie feeling he is not northern Irish even though he lives in the north of Ireland.
    why are you insisting he is northern Irish?

    Where do you live? Are you southern Irish?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Delete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Ireland is one nation of people with one national patron saint. The island of Britain is made up of 3 different nations of people. If someone wasborn and rared in England for instance but refused at being called english then it us obvious they have some bigotry towards it. Ditto for the nations of Scotland Wales and Ireland.

    It is obvious you have bigotry towards Ireland. You cant even say you live here ffs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Why would that make him a bigot if he is not from the north of Ireland? Not following you.

    Btw i am from the east of Ireland. But whether you're from north south east or west we are all part of the irish nation with one NATIONAL patron saint. If from Ireland and you're refusing to be called irish well then obviously you can infer you have bigotry towards it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I am northern Irish @downcow.
    Well we both are to someone from Tipp or Galway or Dublin or London or France etc.

    I am from Ulster in the north of Ireland
    Where are you from? - Ulster in the north of Ireland

    I can get someone from the southern tip of South America to your door and sitting in your front room sipping tae, without mentioning Britain, the UK or even if it came to it 'Northern' Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You don't have two definitions.

    There is a sinister agenda to deny the people of Northern Ireland their birthright as British. The law is clear, if you are born in Northern Ireland, you are born British. Someday that may change, but until then, it is what it is. That doesn't deny those people the right to assert their Irish identity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I could hold up a mirror to this definition.

    Moderate republicans are those who are comfortable with the idea that the people born in Northern Ireland are British and don't hate on all things British to make them feel more Irish.

    Ordinary decent people who want a united Ireland but who accepted long ago that a majority of the people of Northern Ireland want to stay part of the UK and who are not jumping up and down every day demanding a border poll when the conditions for one have not been met.

    Ordinary decent people who accept that violent republicanism was wrong and sincere apologies and restitution must come from those who politically supported such violence.

    These people don't deny the legitimacy of the Northern Irish identity.

    Then there are the extreme republicans who don't accept all of the above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You may be northern Irish, but you are not Northern Irish, because you were not born in Northern Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    What has been happening is that identity in the North has been fracturing among the younger population. Inevitable that a state that exists for over a century develops some kind of an identity especially when it has been at peace for 30 years.

    The Northern Irish identity is replacing some of the Irish identity and some of the British identity, to the extent that if we don't have a divisive border poll in the next decade, we may never have one. Sinn Fein leaders realise this, hence their instructions to MLMD to increase the calls.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    To be fair, I am putting that argument out as equally legitimate to the false narrative being put forward that all people born on this island are Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




    Majorities in both jurisdictions want a BP in the next decade.

    They will have the debate, make their choice, have the poll as moderates and accept the results.

    It will be the belligerents who threaten that 'all hell will break loose' or who'll try to set up a 'satellite to the motherland' who will be the divisive ones, no doubt trying to stoke reciprocal violence with republican dissidents and cheered on by their partitionist allies in the south.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭csirl


    Reading this thread it seems like most people think that 2125 Ireland will consist of a bunch of people arguing over tetminology including what people in America and Hispanola call themselves!

    I think this lot are all wrong. Someone from 2125 looking back at this thread will be thinking "what an argumentative bunch.......Im glad everyone gets along with each other today.."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I must have missed the referendum on whether we should have a border poll, not that it matters what people think or want.

    There are specific conditions set out in an international agreement about a border poll. They haven't been met.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There aren't any conditions as you know by now. No need to show you up again.

    But what has that to do with what people want?

    Ordinary people want to see this put to the test and an Irish government Plan, as per our constitutional will.

    The only people petrified about that are belligerent Unionist/Loyalists and their allies in the south - partitionists.
    All the symptoms of fear are here in this thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    What conditions beyond, 'the Secretary of State thinks it is likely to pass' do you think are set out in an international agreement?

    While I don't think it is likely to pass myself, confirming or denying that the SoS thinks it is like to pass would require insight into the operation of their mind, so with such a wishy washy condition, I don't think it is possible to say that the condition(s) haven't been met.

    The equal and opposite applies also of course; it isn't possible to confidently assert that the conditions for calling a border poll HAVE been met either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    IMO a Border Poll will be decided upon via back channels. Soon as a Dublin government says 'we are ready; the process will begin.
    The whole thing will be heavily choreographed between the two governments to maintain stability.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    The basic requirement is that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland needs to believe that the majority would vote for a United Ireland… and we are a long way from that and even you seem to accept that base on your recognition of the "belligerent Unionist/Loyalists".

    As for the ordinary people, who's opinions you regularly misunderstand on here, the majority voted for parties that suppor the principle of a border poll, but have not plans to hold one and it is not an important issue for the voters.

    When it comes to an actual referendum, my fear as a Republican is that clowns like SF etc… will push for it too soon and the South will vote NO. And if it's a NO it would set Irish Republicanism back a hundred years. And they would have some very good reason for doing so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    As for the ordinary people, who's opinions you regularly misunderstand on here, the majority voted for parties that suppor the principle of a border poll, but have not plans to hold one and it is not an important issue for the voters.

    Frankly, all that can change in a heartbeat, Simply by a change of leadership, to someone like this, for instance

    Video | Facebook

    or whoever in FG is blocking the likes of Varadkar expressing his real views, dies off or loses their grip on the direction of the party,

    or by a simple change in the make up of a coalition government.

    As pro-Uiers of all shades have shown, they simply are not going to sit at the back of the bus and await those who would ordinarily and happily ignore NI because they simply don't care.

    I can only speak for myself here, I don't fear losing a referendum because I know the will to unite will never die.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    “and await those who would ordinarily and happily ignore NI because they simply don't care.”

    Francie, if that’s the feeling of the majority of people in the South, then go and actually do something to attempt to change their mind. Merely complaining about it won’t get you anywhere.



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