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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I wouldn’t insist in calling a Canadian an ‘American’ I would call them a ‘North American from Canada,

    That is derived from the name of the island/continent/landmass.

    Someone born on the island of Ireland is Irish, to me.
    You are running around demanding I conform to your views, forget that, not happening.

    Violence on this island did achieve some things for people who used it, as I listed earlier.
    Again you can deny that but sadly it’s as true as saying night follows day is true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    "America" (referring to the continent of North America or the country the United States) is not an island because it is not surrounded by water on all sides; it shares land borders with Canada and Mexico.

    FRANCIEBRADY, YOU ARE WRONG IN CALLING AMERICA AN ISLAND.

    The other fact you get wrong : because you think everyone from Ireland is Irish, you think everyone from America is American. Wrong, as any Canadian will tell you if you bump in to them in Montreal or wherever and tell them they are American, they will very quickly correct you. Same as if you go in to a bar in Newtownards and tell everyone born in that town they are Irish and none are British, you will get the same response. Especially in the past 40 or 50 years as the pIRA and republicanism have dirtied the word "irish" a bit, same as they hijacked the Irish flag.

    If you ask someone born in the Canaries what nationality they are, or what passport they have, it will more than likely be Spanish. Spain is where they pay their taxes to. Funny how you can deny someone not born on a mainland the nationality of their mainland, the place where pay their taxes to, get social welfare from etc.

    Post edited by itsacoolday on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And if you bump into me I will tell you that I am Irish because I was born in Ireland. If I told somebody I was British because I was born in Ireland I would expect them to laugh at me.


    That’s me done with this. Accept it or believe what you want. No skin off my nose tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Of course you are Irish, you are from and live in Co. Monaghan. Nobody disputes that.

    Where you are wrong of course is in insisting everyone born on the island of Ireland is Irish as their nationality. That would be like me trying to tell you that you are British, because you are from the British Isles. If someone is from the UK , pays their taxes to the UK, has a UK passport etc, I am quite happy to agree they are British. No skin of my nose. If they want to identify as Irish and get an Irish passport, even though they were born + pay their taxes in the UK, that is ok too, although it is my taxes not theirs paying for embassies etc abroad should they need assistance when travelling with that passport. So be it.

    N.B. Just warning you, do not go in to a bar full of Canadians and insist they are all Americans. Would not end well. Although seeing as you thought America was just an island, they might just think you are a badly educated fool and let you off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,463 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    Its such a shame these threads on the future of the island always get bogged down in nonsense. It is potentially a very interesting discussion and something we will all need to get our heads around if there is a border poll in the 2040's.

    I would vote for unity tomorrow but millions on this island still need convincing if its to have any hope of passing. 50% +1 will win the day but pro unity campaigners need to aim for a resounding, uncontestable result on both sides of the border.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    The demonym of Ireland is irish. Whats fucked up is when people from Ireland say they have no national identity as irish but only british as its british tradition too that people from Ireland's national identity is irish and is why the national patron saint of Ireland's (st patrick) symbol is superimposed into the British flag to represent the irish nation in the union. There is no national patron saint of the British. Even under british tradition its a union of the the English Welsh Scottish and Irish nations of people.

    I never met a person born and rared in England saying they're not English but only British. Have you? Its laughable in the same way people from Ireland saying it and then claiming to have a national identity of British which basically says they're irish if from Ireland and that fact is symbolised by its flag, hence why the 98% of the UK population who live on the island of Britain refer to people from Ireland as Irish.

    And i will preempt your response which will be something along the lines that irish and british identities are mutually exclusive. Like alot here say. Its not the british identity in Ireland that is laughable it is the non irish identity in Ireland that is and makes no sence even by british tradition or to people actually from Britain.

    Post edited by ittakestwo on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    My view of the future is that it has to be one that will work.

    I really don't like the idea of can kicking or appeasement.
    Yes we of course can make concessions and Unionists will have to as well.

    But we shouldn't can kick issues just because they are too hard to deal with.

    We definitely need to get the idea of appeasement (trinkets to make things easier) out of our heads too. That is leaving problems to our children in our wills.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Rubbish. My response is not " something along the lines that irish and british identities are mutually exclusive".. Canadians are from the continent of North America ( not "island of America" as bright FrancisBrady thinks it is!!!! 🤣🤣 ), but you do not call people from Canada "Americans". If you ask them where they are from / what nationality they are they will tell you they are Canadians.

    With N.I., yes Ireland is part of the geographic British Isles, but if someone from N.Ireland pays their taxes to the British revenue, is protected by the British armed forces, has a British passport ( call it a United Kingdomer passport if you want, but that's a mouthful ), then it is natural they call themselves British. In the same way someone from Hawaii is American nationality, even though Hawaii is thousands of miles from ( FrancisBradys Island of 🤣:)) America.

    Ireland is represented on the Union Jack and on St. Patricks day the Irish Gaurd's regiment of the British army celebrate it etc, but because of what some would perceive to be the sectarian ethic cleansing campaign of the IRISH Republican Army ( "armed struggle" to you and the bearded one), some people in N.I. are less inclined to call themselves Irish. Is is like how the Irish flag was hijacked by the IRA. The Irish flag is now associated with Republicanism - look at the eejit from Keeecap doing it no favours or respect either. You have only yourselves to blame.

    The great Paddy Mayne from Newtownards, played rugby for Ireland before he co-founded the SAS during WW2. If someone was in the B.A. now from Newtownards and you were to ask them what passport they had, or what nationality they were, I doubt if they would say Irish. I do not blame them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    With N.I., yes Ireland is part of the geographic British Isles,

    Like British law, nobody observes that old 'colonial possession' phrase here anymore. Even the British have conceded not to use it in official interchanges. They recognise it is redundant and an offensive reminder of their colonial misdeeds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Geographically, what have you renamed this group of islands ( Britain , Ireland, Isle of Man etc )as?

    A weather system is approaching the ……. isles?

    Were you missing in geography class as well as history class , because you thought America was an island? The rest of the world thinks of them geographically as the British isles, you have the arrogance to tell them you want them renamed. OK - what do you rename them as?

    It is only geographic.

    And care to answer the other points, because you know I am right about nationality.

    N.B. Found any Canadians yet, and if you have, have you called them "Americans"? They will not take kindly to that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Like British law, nobody observes that old 'colonial possession' phrase here anymore. Even the British have conceded not to use it in official interchanges. They recognise it is redundant and an offensive reminder of their colonial misdeeds.

    If the British themselves are mature enough to realise it is redundant and no longer appropriate then you should put the big trousers on and do the same.

    **For the purposes of the conversation on 'this island' I referred to North America as an island. I know it is technically a continent and the same descriptor 'North American' works for it as well. A Canadian is a North American and I see none of them objecting to that.

    Knowing your penchant and need for easy wins I probably should have known better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    lol. You are backtracking again. You called America an island. You call / want to call everyone from Ireland Irish as their nationality. Well you do not call everyone from America "American" as their nationality. Any Canadian will tell you that.

    As I explained to you,

    Ireland is represented on the Union Jack and on St. Patricks day the Irish Gaurd's regiment of the British army celebrate it etc, but because of what some would perceive to be the sectarian ethic cleansing campaign of the IRISH Republican Army ( "armed struggle" to you and the bearded one), some people in N.I. are less inclined to call themselves Irish. Is is like how the Irish flag was hijacked by the IRA. The Irish flag is now associated with Republicanism - look at the eejit from Keeecap doing it no favours or respect either. You have only yourselves to blame.

    The great Paddy Mayne from Newtownards, played rugby for Ireland before he co-founded the SAS during WW2. If someone was in the B.A. now from Newtownards and you were to ask them what passport they had, or what nationality they were, I doubt if they would say Irish. I do not blame them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The delusion that Unionists are the only ones with an historic grievance about violent acts against them is strong in this ^^.

    Maybe by 2125 they will have accepted that what happened on this island was as much their fault as anyone else's and see that it was the mismanagement of the colony and the ongoing lack of care for it, by the British that primarily caused the issues.

    After all, many children come to realise as adults that their parents spoiled them and caused them issues dealing with others. Some of them can fix the issues by confronting them.

    Looking to the future, do you think that confronting of their part will happen? Should it happen?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Go to a bar in Coalisland Co Tyrone and tell them they are British- they will give U more than a slap in the face-

    A British Para soldier was blew up in a IRA bomb in the early 90s and the armed brit army went into a bar in Coalisland to beat the locals up- the locals beat the sh1t out of them and took their machine guns off them

    The Para was deported back to England in disgrace and will Never set foot here again-

    We won-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    The 1920 government of Ireland act was removed- ( read the GFA-

    Thank U Provos-

    Act(s of union were removed- ( try reading-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If you were posting on boards in 1925 you would have said the same thing about 2025, yet here we are.

    The state of Northern Ireland has survived over one hundred years in its current form and there is nothing to suggest it won't survive another century, only the wishful thinking of the deluded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    And someone born on the British Isles is British to other people.

    Your attempts to force labels on others is tiresome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    All I did was give 'my' opinion or view.

    The forcing to change that view/opinion seems to be coming from others.

    Heck I have even been threatened that I'm breaking the law of another country! 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,463 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    I just dont agree, our goal should be a simple one. Win a border poll North and South. All energies and motivations should be how do we sell that, what will it take to convince people that Unity will not be the worst thing that could happen. That their identity will still have a place and be respected. That the British Irish relationship will deepen and go from strength to strength.

    I have no desire for a United Ireland to trample all over unionists way of life. Their culture should be protected and adapted as part of the culture of a United Ireland.

    Hopefully here will be around 6 million Irish people and 1 million British people under the new United Ireland government. We should be going out of our way to reassure them that their way of life will not be wiped out the day after unity.

    Their history is our history. Gaels, Vikings, Norman's, Anglo Irish, Northern Unionists are all part of our collective history. Bickering and telling someone what they are is foolish and counterproductive.

    I get annoyed when I am referred to as Southern Irish. Get the f**k. I am Irish, end of. No more than a British person from North Down or Larne or wherever needs to be told what he or she is. I think they have a better idea of their personal identity than anyone else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     That their identity will still have a place and be respected. 

    You enshrine in the constitution that all citizens of whatever identity they choose are equal. You cannot demand respect. Respect is earned and all sides need to learn that. Side line the belligerents on both sides and I don't see a problem going forward.

    I have no desire for a United Ireland to trample all over unionists way of life. Their culture should be protected and adapted as part of the culture of a United Ireland.

    I already accept that Unionism is a part of my culture and heritage. I already accept their rights to practice their culture as I accept the rights of the Irish and any other identities to practice theirs. We also have to accept that there is no onus on somebody to enjoy or value all aspects of a culture. All that is required of both sides is respect.

    For instance, I understand that people will want to commemorate their dead and those they feel sacrificed for them. I am fine with that if it is done in a respectful non-confrontational way and is not designed to taunt or hurt. There is work to be done there on all sides and a need for some straight talking.

    The Decade of Centenaries (2012-2023) here is a model of inclusiveness and respectful commemoration to work on. The dangers in not properly considering these things and trying to 'impose' can be seen in the RIC debacle.
    I accept that commemorations may have to be separate events for some time in a UI as some things are understandably too raw for living people.

    All sides will have to sit down, grow up and make compromises if a majority democratically decide to unite.
    If people want a democratic and equal society, they need to be honest, be prepared to agree to disagree, to respect above all and not to expect to be appeased or mollycoddled.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Canada is part of a geographical continent north America. I would refer to Canadians as north Americans as they are.

    Again i don't have a problem with British identity in NI. Just when you say you're not irish you can infer youre a bigot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I appreciate your post and your reasonable approach from your perspective. The problem is that the number one thing that matters to me and most of my community is that Northern Ireland identity, culture and country continues.  It really doesn’t matter if you build us all policies but tell us that our country doesn’t exist.  

    I think the best way for you to get your head around it, is that viral suggesting to you that the 26 counties should rejoin the United Kingdom and drop any separation or any reference to the term Ireland.  I wouldn’t expect that or suggest that.   

    If you want to ever win a border poll, and that is a longshot, you need to develop a strategy that guarantees Northern Ireland’s existence within the United Ireland for at least 99 years.  Are evolved Power, our football team, etc needs to continue.  

    Anything less and all hell will break loose. 

    If our two countries can operate on the one island, in the one kingdom, fully cooperating and enjoying that relationship, then there is real hope of a wonderful peaceful future



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I have an equal problem with people labelling everyone on this island Irish or people labelling everyone from these islands British.

    Both are wrong. There are people on this island born British, people need to get over that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    The demonym of this island is irish but British is not demonym of these islands. British is the demonym of the island of Britain.

    So you can refer to people as irish if being used as the geographical demonym of Ireland.

    But if you're from Ireland and say you only have a national identity as British this makes no sence either as its british tradition that the irish nation is one of nations of the union with st patricks symbol superimposed into the British flag to represent the irish in the union. The i am only british line in Ireland just reeks of bigotry.

    Ever met a person from England to say they're not English but only British? It is laughable in the same way an irish person would say it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Correct-

    The PUL on this island support the ( Northern ) Ireland football team- it is not called the British team-

    The PUL label themselves as ( Northern ) Irish-

    When all is said and done the PUL clings to Ireland-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Again, you are telling people their identity.

    There are people living on these islands who refer to them as the British Isles. That is a fact. Some of those people see themselves as British because they are born on one or other of these islands.

    There are people living on this island who refer to it as Ireland and do not accept the British Isles as a label. That is a fact. Some of those people see themselves as Irish because they are born on this island.

    There are people living on this island who refer to the six northern counties as Northern Ireland, a place apart from Ireland. That is a fact. Some of those people see themselves as Northern Irish because they are born in those six counties.

    You and I cannot tell any of these people that they are wrong.

    Legally, those people born in Northern Ireland are born British because of the UK Nationality Act. Legally, those people born in Ireland (26 counties) are born Irish because of the Nationality Act.

    So if you are born on these islands and you claim only a national identity as British, nobody can say you are wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,463 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    The problem there is unionists will have to accept the democratic choice of the people of NI first and foremost. So will the British and Irish governments. The Good Friday agreement guarantees the right of the people of Ireland to vote for or against unity. If in say 2045 a majority of 100 people in NI vote for unity. You can say its a long shot but look at the changes in NI since 2005. If you are telling me its absolutely outside the realms of all possibility that that could happen I think you are not being honest with yourself.

    I am not saying it will definitely happen, just that it could happen. I hope it does. You I am sure hope it doesnt. No issue there. Both reasonable aspirations to hold.

    I would have no problem with a devolved NI government assembly remaining in place. Ireland could become a federal country with assembly's created along the EU constituency boundaries governing their local interests but the Dublin government administering over the entire island.

    I would imagine NI would hold more devolved powers than the other 3 newly created regional assemblies for South, Midlands - NorthWest and Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody has ever made this definition:

    In the UK, advocates of the Union are
    Scottish Unionists
    Welsh Unionists
    English Unionists
    'British Unionists'

    In Ireland they were always known correctly as:

    'Irish Unionists'

    Craig was one
    Paisley was one
    Trimble was one
    Carson (from Dublin) was one.

    Downcow is one.
    And maybe some of the southern posters here are too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I would put it another way.

    With the Irish nationalist share of the population stagnating in the mid-30s, there is no possibility of a united Ireland without buy-in from those who consider themselves Northern Irish. That buy-in will require a federal or confederal united Ireland that maintains a separate identity for Northern Ireland. Even then, achieving a majority for a united Ireland will be difficult in the next two or three decades.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    "There are people living on these islands who refer to them as the British Isles. That is a fact. Some of those people see themselves as British because they are born on one or other of these islands"

    This again is not true and is your ideology of on one again.

    Any person with a British national identity has a connection to Britain . People up north with this identity ancestry came from Britain during the plantations. People from Britain wouldnt consider lets say a person brought up in dublin who has no British ancestry as being British. If the British national identity did consider people born in Ireland as British just by that fact we would never have had the apaerthieds here after the plantations as we would have all considered ourselves the same and intermarried.

    Read about the famine in 1840s when all of Ireland was part of the UK. Not one history book will say 1.5m British people starved to death. It will say irish people starved and also mention the fact that many of these irish pesants had British lords (who owned the land and were from Britain). Why do history bookd distinguish betwern irish and british when we were all in the UK? The reason being people born in Ireland with no ancestry from Britain were never considered British even when part of the UK.

    Your crusty logic is probably thinking along the lines of a UI is coming but i desperately want a British identity to live on in Ireland. So I will now rewrite history and pretend that being born in either Britain or Ireland is/was the qualifer as to have the British national identity. But it never was/is



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