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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I would always have thought about a premeditation simply because the killer must have known that Sophie was at her cottage. What's the point of calling to her cottage if she isn't there? The killer can't talk to her then, or kill her. And remember it was the first time she was ever there around Christmas time.

    As the reason for calling to her cottage would have been a strong objective and worth the wait until she was at her cottage, and she, as long as being alive, would always have been some form of risk to the killer, he killed her. And even if the rage was triggered by hate, there is most likely a prior story to that, - hate of this kind doesn't build up out of no reason and against a woman who is hardly ever in Ireland at all.

    So I've always considered a premeditation and some kind of prior connection as more likely than an unplanned rage due to sexual rejection or for whatever reason.

    It's possible that he didn't wear gloves the following days because he wasn't in the habit of doing so, plus probably none of the locals did that either. It's also possible he didn't wear any gloves as he had no reasons for concern. We don't know that. We don't even know if he owned gloves or was uses to wearing them in winter. They could have asked Jules or the locals who knew him.

    The "changing alibi" often bothered me in the sense that if he did it, he knew that he needed a stronger story and he knew that he needed to stick to it. It's possible that at the time he wasn't botherd and didn't expect to be framed for murder, that is framed if he didn't do it.

    Suppose he "washed" his coat at Kealfadda bridge that coat would have been rather heavy and soaked in water and difficult to carry home, - but not impossible but rather burdensome.

    We also don't know if the time and the day can be accurately verified when the coat was soaking in that bucket around Christmas. It'll be an unreliable statement anyway, Jule's daughters may have disliked him and deliberately have stated the morning on the day after the killing, also now it's nearly 30 years onward. It's certainly neither reliable nor credible as evidence. Same goes for the fire behind his studio. We can't be certain if it was before the murder or after, - neighbours who didn't like him may easily have stated it was after the murder, right on the next day. But in the end, evidence it is not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 818 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    this is the key for me. I’m assuming they found dna mixed with Sophie’s blood or something like that (which should be discernible) and they can attribute that to the killer.
    if there is only one other dna profile then that is the killer imo (Bailey or someone else). If there is multiple, but not Bailey’s then that’s enough to say he’s innocent imo, but it may still not be necessarily clear who the killer is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,350 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    But what if, the warm blood interacted with completely innocent DNA left previously on the brick, and they are now mixed into each other?
    I would argue that what you’re looking for, is DNA on the brick that’s standalone, from a person who had no business or record of having ever set foot on the land- other than a person who might have made that brick, then the only conclusion would be, that that is the killer. Any DNA mixed with Sophie’s and belonging to someone who lived in that very area, used the gate etc - it can’t be said definitively that they are the killer



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Regardless of who is ever found to be responsible, the investigation was marred by both incompetence and corruption and needs to be properly and openly reviewed although we all know this won't happen, given that despite a public apology (plus compensation) there was never an investigation into why the Hayes family confessed to a crime they had nothing to do with.

    If Bailey is responsible then it will be based on actual evidence and not the crap peddled as evidence that AGS have used so far.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,350 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “would always have thought about a premeditation simply because the killer must have known that Sophie was at her cottage. What's the point of calling to her cottage if she isn't there? The killer can't talk to her then, or kill her. And remember it was the first time she was ever there around Christmas time.”


    If Bailey, premeditation to visit her- possibly, but no evidence of this- premeditation to murder her if Bailey, obviously not as he’s alibi is pathetic for such a premeditated act.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    There is more to it I believe: Just consider how Sophie's head was bashed in. If the killer had no protection at all, he would have had blood all over him, making either the hike home risky or the drive in the car home risky. And then, no fingerprints were found, which is a bit odd for an unplanned rage killing. So some kind of protection would have to have been key to this as well, which also points to premedidated.

    There would have to have been consequences for the involved Guards who messed things up. Disciplinary measures, demotion, or even getting sacked. Trust in the Garda was clearly broken and the stigma of corruption lay upon the Garda for decades, dogged the whole investigation.

    Suppose the DNA can be traced beyond reasonable doubt to the killer and the killer is already dead, speculation about the motive would continue. Suppose it was Alfie's? Was it drugs as a motive or an argument over property ownership or open or closed gates?

    It's a bit hard for me to find a motive for Bailey, not even a sexual motive. We know that Sophie was "free spirited" but I doubt very much that she would have considered sleeping with a drunken Bailey that night. Bailey would have known right from the start he wouldn't get very far with her. Bailey wasn't known to have cheated on Jules at all. I would put my bets that Bailey had fewer sexual partners than Sophie. The relationship between Jules and Bailey was rather long and rather stable from what I understand. If there was something into this direction Jules would have spoken out by now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think the sexual motive speaks the most for Karl Heinz Wollney. He was single, recently divorced, lived in the area, spoke French, was artisitc. He may have met Sophie somewhere by accident in the pub or whilst hiking in the countryside, fancied sleeping with her and he killed her in a rage upon rejection.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭BQQ


    Likewise if it was Bailey?

    That would cast a dark shadow over Jules and how much she knew?

    Might explain her defence of the man who brutally assaulted her?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Yep, the surviving women would have to have some explaining to do about their dead menfolk…. That is if it was one of them.

    Jules is apparently writing a book, it'll be interesting if it was published after it was proven it was Bailey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 182 ✭✭thoneaseessi


    The manner of the killing ie; frenzied attack surely suggests not premeditated



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,350 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    If published she might have to do a follow up edit



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But she has continued to claim how he couldn't have killed Sophie, even after his death. She had plenty of opportunities since Sophies murder to have had him taken into custody and yet she remains steadfast that he is innocent.

    In addition, Jules' daughters who despised Bailey have also stuck to the view that he didn't carry out the murder.

    I have no doubt that Bailey was a complete scumbag but I really don't think Jules was defending him out of fear - the evidence wouldn't support that view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 182 ✭✭thoneaseessi


    Or she didn't know anything if bailey did it

    Anyway this is great news after all these years if there's a development



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    This trolling sounds very familiar, but it couldn't be @thoneaseessi, they've only been re registered 2 weeks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    If it was Bailey then it would undoubtedly fall back on her. Living with and harbouring a killer for 20 years and more is something which won't go down too well with the locals. Maybe it'll also mean possible legal trouble for Jules?

    And if it wasn't Bailey its always possible he confided in her, told her things about his own enquiries / ideas on who the killer was. Remember, Bailey once stated on TV that it was a man from Bantry who was known to Sophie. If Bailey came to that opinion, I am sure, Jules knows something more, most likely also why precisely Bailey thought that it was a man from Bantry known to Sophie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,350 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I’m not convinced this will be the sort of “development” as the article suggests it will be- while it appears DNA has been uncovered, it’s not at all certain that this case will soon be solved - if it’s not baileys and not a cross contamination of say a Garda on duty at the scene (as opposed to some slug Garda who had dodgy dealings in the area)- then we’re into who and why and how and whole new investigation that may or may not lead anywhere.
    It may ultimately be an innocent explanation - yes it could also be the killer but there’s a long way to go yet- the article is the journalistic equivalent of PE.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I have had that thought as well. But also I am not sure, what is held back from the media and the public. After all this is a murder investigation, even though cold case.

    This would mean, if sill alive and the DNA evidence is really beyond reasonable doubt, somebody would be expected to be arrested at any moment or the suspect in question beyond reasonable doubt is already dead.

    If the first was the case there would have been an arrest already and up to that arrest the Guards would have kept things quiet, released nothing to the media, - due to a possible flight risk.

    So I would presume the suspect in question is already dead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,160 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Probably over thinking it… there is also the possibility this is an attempt to spook a suspect and see if they do a runner. But that level of observation seems more like FBI level resources than Garda cold case.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,350 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    True- we don’t know what the Gardai know- we did once upon a time when the files were sent to the DPP many years ago- but we don’t at all know where the Gardai’s minds are at now with this cold case review.
    We know they haven’t ruled out Bailey - we don’t know what if any other suspects came under this review. I guess we just have to be patient and wait.
    This DNA could be completely insignificant and an innocent explanation

    - it could solve the case (ie Bailey)-

    -or it could blow the case wide open and if it does that then we’re not likely to hear anything for a very long time.
    Even if the DNA belongs to someone other than Bailey and is no longer alive, I doubt they will release that information until a major investigation on that person is completed



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    well according to Jules a year ago:

    I know he didn’t do it, he is such a messy person there would be blood everywhere, and also, he could never keep a secret. He was just one of those people who talked and talked.

    Ian Bailey was 'creature of excess' - former partner



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    My own opinion is that the article in yesterday's paper is pure speculation and the CCR haven't leaked anything. It seems odd that they would jeopardise a case over evidence that hasn't yet been fully processed.

    Sheridan starts off mentioning about a possible breakthrough and gets the reader's hopes up but the article finishes with the following (my bold)…

    If a match is found, a crime that has haunted Ireland for almost three decades may soon be resolved — and Toscan du Plantier’s killer may finally be named.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Nothing on this story anywhere else apart from it being repeated verbatim in The Sun.

    So it’s beginning to look like Michael Sheridan has come up with a piece of fictition much like his book on the subject.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Those who write books or shoot movies and series about the murder are motivated by money only. You certainly won't get anything "new" here.

    I don't know about over thinking, as it's all speculation.

    I understand far too little about practical matters on how this new technology collects DNA. Theoretically it could be the DNA of the bricklayer who built the pumphouse in the first place.

    Bailey also kept drawings and writings about extreme sexual phantasies, as far as I know. I've read that somewhere. So if he really was the killer he would have disposed of them quickly, far too incriminating, even though circumstancial.

    What bothers me so much about the Bailey theory is that there isn't much in terms of a motive. He didn't cheat, he didn't have regular brawls or fights in the pub, he had nothing financial to gain. Rape was ruled out early on as well.

    So if he did it, why? Lust for killing? Hate for women or hate for French people? If he ever saw Sophie in person, when did he see her last? Maybe more than 6 months to one year ago?

    Bailey doesn't strike me as the organized person. However in order to leave no traces, not being seen, and getting away with murder, no prints, no DNA, not leaving any blood in the process whilst returning home would imply that the killer was organized, - no matter how strongly that "rage and unplanned" theory persists.

    Otherwise it would only have been luck and that would in my opinion be less likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 397 ✭✭sekiro


    I think good to have closure and have the case closed.

    I would say they've been extremely lucky to pin it on Bailey finally though.

    They so obviously wanted to put it on him from very early on. Even the French seemed super eager to reach the "Bailey did it" conclusion but their methods have been dodgy from the start.

    Using Marie Farrell as their star witness is just completely wild to me. You've got a lady here claiming she was in the location of the murder and the time of the murder with a mystery man in her car AND she just happens to be pointing the investigation towards another suspect? Somehow we can't ever discover the identity of the other male in the locale of the crime at the time of the crime?

    If Marie is full of it then that part of the story needs to go away.

    If Marie is truthful then you've got someone basically admitting they were there and another unknown man was there but it's OK because we don't need to know who the other unknown man was because Marie says she saw Bailey.

    The investigations and especially the French case were really trying to have their cake and eat it there. Marie is simultaneously their reliable witness to convict Bailey but we just can't expect her to name the other man in this tale.

    If they did ultimately manage to pin it on Bailey then it's more a case of blind luck than anything else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,928 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Bah, I forgot about the bricklayer! This is actually possible.

    But how many of us could stand unblushing by our sexual fantasies? What people write in their diaries about erotic imaginings, I wouldn't place too much stock in. It might be suggestive — or it might be just a VERY private daydream.

    And poor old Mrs Farrell: she only claimed to have seen someone, fairly near the crime location and at about the right time - (maybe) when she was out with her boyfriend. The Guards persuaded her, repeatedly and forcefully, to review and rethink and somehow agree that it was Bailey - and she yielded to that pressure: but later withdrew this claim. Alleging intimidation, which I find very easy to believe.

    I think she must have named the boyfriend to the Guards and they agreed not to publish it. Leaving him unidentified verges on the ludicrous. She has stated that he, too, is now dead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 182 ✭✭thoneaseessi


    Obviously a leak may not come directly from CCR and probably doesn't if it was leaked

    Gardai know each other and talk to each other. A crime journalist speculated recently that each garda knows 1000 other gardai.

    Article could be rubbish too



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,958 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The idea that Bailey went to Keelfada br to wash up never made sense to me. Bailey lived at the blue circle, Sophie's house was in the red circle. Keelfada is in the pink oval.
    If you were covered in blood and had to get clean whilst not being seen, would you take a long way home (which takes in a busy road) or would you go to Dunmanus pier which is closer to the direct route home?

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Bah, I forgot about the bricklayer!"

    Don`t forget the hod carrier.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭tibruit




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,928 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    You may laugh, but really, how accurate is this extraction system?

    Maybe it really would pick up the skin traces of anyone who ever touched an item. (assuming it wasn't washed - a safe assumption here)



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