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Should roundabouts in/around urban areas be banned outright??

  • 19-08-2025 12:29PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,856 ✭✭✭✭


    There are a number of very valid reasons to remove and ban further roundabouts in or near urban areas.

    1. Land take. Most roundabouts take up more land than cross junctions.
    2. 'Active Travel' - roundabouts may as well be trenches when it comes to pedestrians or cyclists. You have to invariably take a long route around unless an expensive bridge structure is provided.
    3. Both these points are already proven just by looking at bus connects and the number of roundabouts that will be removed. Other roundabouts have already been removed in various places under different schemes notably at junctions on the N3 near Blanchardstown.
    4. Meeting loads of roundabouts as a motorist (like in Swords for example or some of those industrial estates in North West Dublin) I find them a pain after you've gone through 10 of them in a row. It's hard to understand the logic for so many in certain places. Also I think those 'mini roundabout' painted dots could go as well.

    Like I say I would go further and simply ban them outright near on in urban areas. I don't think they are needed or desirable anymore.

    Opinions?



«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I have thought similar myself. It's the proliferation of those small roundabouts you mention that are the biggest issue rather than the larger roundabouts on major roads I think. The "newer" towns like Swords, Carrigaline etc seem to get absolutely coated in them. Dungarvan is a headwreck to drive past. And let's not mention the Bóthar na dTreabh in Galway.

    It is at least possible to do better for vulnerable users if we used designs more closely resembling what's in Netherlands. But land take is the issue there. Here's one in Haarlem: https://maps.app.goo.gl/kFLgBVqokasDspxm7 and more complex one here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xFRtaWyzCyEjfc9e7 Or of course if we just keep the vulnerable users away from the roundabout altogether with dedicated segregated routes.

    I think the only good reason I can think to not outright "ban" them is to allow a reverse of the priority for a given junction: to prioritise traffic turning right. It's also nice to not have lights and all associated junction complexities too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 837 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    Cork Airport’s roundabouts are especially annoying



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Cork Airport’s roads are their own special invention. They don’t follow TII or local authority guidelines, and they even made up their own signage. Which was dreadful.

    On the topic, roundabouts are generally beneficial to drivers, as they allow the drivers to make the decision on when to proceed rather than being forced to wait for a signal. The alternative is light-controlled intersections, which will normally delay cars much more than a roundabout would, especially if there’s right-turning traffic. The only exception is at very low traffic levels, where sensors are used to turn the signal green for approaching cars. (There’s one of these at a normally busy cross near me: it’s stuck on a four-way red from about 03:00 to 07:00, but if a car approaches one of the arms, it will turn green to allow it through)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I think in general we could do a lot more and a lot better with lighted junction sensors and sequences. Probably a discussion for a different dedicated thread but it's irritating me a lot lately.

    Back on urban roundabouts, is it question of quantity? We have too many. Half the ones I've seen in Carrigaline are to elevate/prioritise access to the main road for large housing estates and that doesn't feel right to me. If the housing development is that huge that traffic flows are a problem, then we probably need a better distributor, not simply a roundabout.

    I have a long list of terrible urban roundabouts just in Cork alone: Wilton Roundabout, Midleton "Gyratory" (at Super Valu), Crompán in Little Island (upgraded to lighted soon, hopefully), the CIT roundabout on Rossa Avenue (if you need to put up big steel fences to protect pedestrians, you're probably doing it wrong), Centre Park Road roundabout (being removed soon also, hopefully).

    And I honestly can't think of a "good" urban roundabout in Cork. Not one. That's pretty damning. The closest I can think of is the one at Bury's Bridge where they "bypassed" the roundabout with a greenway - great design there in fairness. https://maps.app.goo.gl/DATL8daDqzAf74uK9



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭plodder


    The worst roundabouts are the ones with traffic signals on (and particularly in) them. The most egregious I've come across is the Malahide roundabout in Swords. Those lights were installed to regulate chronic congestion before the M1 was built, but the lights are still there, causing chaos, decades later.

    Roundabouts work well enough if the traffic levels are not too great. One of the worst things that happens at large roundabouts is traffic with right of way entering at high speed. There really should be a general speed limit entering roundabouts of no more than 30 km/h, maybe lower, imo.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭eastie17


    to “bypass” Dungarvan cork to Waterford or return, 13 rounabouts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,856 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I think the fact they are being removed in quite a few cases in Dublin (the ones on the old Swords "bypass" for example, the one in Ballyfermot amongst others) tells a story. They often aren't appropriate or future proof. At best most of them are pointless and at worst you get the rash of mini roundabouts in certain places which are routinely driven over and ignored as well. Why waste the paint.

    The worst offender for me is probably the Dublin airport roundabout which is routinely bunged up and should have gotten a flyover years a go with dedicated M1 slips so traffic can avoid the other pointless roundabout on the M1 which is within 500 meters as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep I hate both of those. And all the other ones to the South of Swords.

    And while we're on about airport roads, Shannon's full of them too. STN, LHR, CDG and BCN have lots too in fairness. But I can see none at AMS: surprise surprise. And I can only find one near Frankfurt. There's a couple near Berlin too, but only on minor service roads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Roundabouts cannot cope with large traffic volumes. They work well up to a point, then when they hit capacity they fail spectacularly in the form of total gridlock from cars stuck on the roundabout waiting for their exit to clear.

    For busy or congested routes, scrap the roundabout. They only belong on lightly trafficked roads or regionals for the most part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    But then do we even really need them for the urban lightly trafficked roads? As the OP says, they're generally poor for vulnerable users or else take up lots of space to facilitate them. Could normal non-roundabout junction design suffice? I think they've raised a good point tbh.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,932 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Sometimes they work. Keep them where they do. Some don't work. Remove those.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭techman1


    I think the sheer waste of land with those large roundabouts is a major factor, you would never see that in the UK as they put a much higher emphasis on not wasting land in urban areas. A huge roundabout takes up area that could be used for houses , parks or amenities. You can't exactly walk the dog in the middle of a roundabout even though some are huge, and all thst grass still has to be cut



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,384 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭Pale Red


    My pet hate is the one where the M50 and N3 meet. Traffic lights installed years ago when all traffic at that junction had to use the roundabout. The only traffic, inbound, using it are people coming out at junction near the Bell or from Connolly Hospital. From the M50 (both N and S) traffic wanting to turn left at the junction near the Bell or go to the Hospital. N3 outbound all traffic except for those going M50S. I think that the light from M50 to roundabout could be retained and the others removed.

    Is it possible to turn off lights at roundabouts at off peak where normal rules avoids sitting looking at a red light and an empty road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 447 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    There is an oversized roundabout where Greenfields and Coolroe Meadows meet in Ballincollig. 90% of the traffic is straight through and the whole thing is absurdly overspecced for what is a minor junction between a main road and lightly used cul de sacs. It is also horribly unfriendly to pedestrians and cyclists

    Cork City Council did have an active travel plan for the road which involved adding dedicated bus stops, separated bike lanes, traffic calming measures and a light controlled junction replacing the roundabout. Ballincollig tidy towns managed to get the plan scrapped because they use the roundabout for floral decoration. Really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,169 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    What town is the roundabout capital of Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,072 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    That's Cork not enforcing its own planning rules again. That road is the distributor for the N22 Ballincollig bypass. The roundabout midway along it was intended to link the north-south distributor to a west-east artery road, off which there would be entrances to housing developments. However, property developers who owned the land were allowed to build their housing estates directly onto the roundabout because money, I suppose…

    The whole planning of Cork’s periphery reeks of corruption: nothing done in the 1990s makes any rational sense unless you assume people were on the take. The original route of the Ballincollig bypass would have gone through one of the large housing estates east of here, but through what could only have been a momentary lapse of memory, planning permission was given for a housing development right on top of a protected future road corridor, thus adding a wide diversion and tens of millions to the build cost of the road when it did proceed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭techman1


    That was probably an exception given that it was a planned town in the 60s i think. Everything motorway roads and cars were all the rage then.

    However generally in the UK you don't see large numbers of roundabouts close together in succession on the suburbs like you see here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,690 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Too many cars are the problem not too many roundabouts.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭Mrs Dempsey


    The Clonmel & Tullamore "bypasses" are a necklace of roundabouts rendered dysfunctional by traffic volumes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Traditional Roundabouts are a problem for pedestrians and cyclists, though. First, there’s no traffic control, so there’s no “safe period” to cross the junction, and second, they’re a lot bigger than a cross junction, so pedestrian and cycle crossings either get pushed back along the arms, or if the crossings are right on the edge of the roundabout, then pedestrians and cyclists are forced to cross four lanes of traffic, not two. Finally, the design of a traditional roundabout prioritises cars over all other users.

    There is a more active-travel friendly design, which is used extensively in the Netherlands. The picture below is from Cambridge in the UK, but it’s a copy of the Dutch model, but with UK road-markings:

    image.png

    Here, pedestrians have highest priority, then bikes, then cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    This UK design is good but it's possible to do even better if you smooth out the angle for cyclists, so they don't do more than around a 45degree turn when coming to the roundabout, which is nice for maintaining momentum. The Dutch had this figured out but the new Irish ones also look really good IMO: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Cycle-Design-Manual_Sept.-2023_Low-Res.pdf page 147/149 here shows a nice one somewhere in Fingal.

    Edit: I have yet to actually use one of these new Irish ones though, so maybe I should reserve judgement. But it looks good.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Between the N2 and N3, as you near the M50, must be the highest concentration of roundabouts on earth



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 680 ✭✭✭PixelCrafter


    some of the busy mini-roundabouts / spot roundabouts are quite dangerous. For example, Strand Road in Sandymount in Dublin. There are a series of tiny spot roundabouts used and people swing right across them sometimes without any warning and way to fast. I've seen a few near misses, crashes and major road rage incidents as a result of this.

    They work if everyone's driving very slowly and being sane about using them i.e. assuming a car or bike might not have 100% visibility - all it takes is one driver to approach fast and it's an issue.

    You typically be driving along the road really slowly, enter the round about and someone will just swing straight across without any warning, assuming they've entered before you, which they usually haven't, and then they nearly slam into you and go totally insane blaming the driver who genuinely just saw a car coming out of nowhere at way too high speed.

    I've encountered a few totally crazy drivers on those over the years, and it's always someone who drives extremely fast, swings right, assumes everyone else can predict their movements and then goes nuts when they nearly slam into oncoming traffic that had no idea they were going to enter that fast and turn right.

    Ireland has absolutely no enforcement of speed limits really on urban roads, so in those areas where you'd assume a 30-50, it's often more like 60-70 or higher in my experience which renders those kind of UK-style features like spot roundabouts highly dangerous.

    They're OK in housing estates or really convoluted situations but, they're inappropriate on roads where traffic won't obey speed limits and will inevitably drive agressively.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭Economics101


    If you remove roundabouts, what do you replace them with? Flyovers, but only in exceptional cases like Dublin Airport. The answer will be almost always traffic lights.

    We are absolutely plagued with traffic lights in this country. Anyone who has driven on the continent will quickly realise this. Not only that but traffic lights which are extravagantly designed ( do you need 4 red lights?) and whose phasing/sequencing is badly thought out. Give me a roundabout any day over more damn lights.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 738 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    Problem with roundabouts is people who haven't a clue how to use them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 680 ✭✭✭PixelCrafter


    I think the biggest issue is Ireland has no use of 'priority to the right' type urban yielding. In continental Europe when you're in a built up area, you typically have to yield to traffic entering from junctions from the right, so everything flows, and there's a culture of letting people out.

    (Obviously we'd have a mirror image of that being RHD)

    In Ireland urban driving has no such setup, so the main road always takes priority and there's a lot of need for controlled junctions with lights, or nobody would get out. So, you end up with endless urban lights on every junction.

    Also find Irish drivers are extremely likely to block and cut off or be petty, especially in cities and at busy times. You'll get people refusing to facilitate merges or lane changes etc. It can be a total pain in the rear to drive in sometimes.

    I also think Irish driving culture is getting worse due to lack of any kind of enforcement of basic traffic rules - a % of aggressive, erratic drivers are just tolerated i.e. the people who break every light etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,282 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I do hate pedestrian crossings just on the arms of roundabouts. Yes, of course they're necessary, but they are dangerous. You have to try to focus on that whilst making sure no-one has come up your inside, and with narrow roundabouts you're trying to make sure your road position is correct so you don't nick the curb.

    Yes of course you should be able to do all of this as a driver, if not slow down, but I can see how a pedestrian stepping out onto the crossing is more likely to get hit than on one that is not connected to a roundabout.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 680 ✭✭✭PixelCrafter


    The other big one is the highly unbalanced roundabout where a couple of arms get extremely busy at rush hour, and, due to layout, have slightly easier time getting onto it, so the other arms can barely get onto it and start clogging. Seems to happen on quite a lot of them.



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