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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This case also would never have really gone to court and if so, would never have stood a chance for a conviction. As a matter of fact, it would have massively backfired for the Garda and their work practices.

    Suppose just for the exercise the Garda were "successful" in their practices:

    • Martin Graham was successfull with his "drug mission" to Ian Bailey who falls for that trick.
    • They've spent various evenings together smoking drugs ( suppose Jules tolerated that)
    • In a hazy moment of intoxication, Ian Bailey goes to his typewriter, types a confession and signs it
    • Marie Farrell remains credible and states having seen a man resembling Bailey loitering around her shop or at night at Kealfadda bridge along with all the others in whose presence Bailey made a verbal confession that "he did it".

    it would never have lead to a conviction.

    The judge would have liked to have understood how and where that confession was signed. And a haze of drug smoking intoxication would hardly have happend in a Garda station. A transient visits the accused offers him drugs and gets a written confession? That would probably be the worst story a judge ever heard. And then there still would have been the absence of fingerprints or DNA of Bailey's on the scene of the crime and the murder weapon. Bailey's solicitor would have had a field day. Same as Marie Farrell coersion or not, this statement would have been circumstancial as well and upon cross examination coersion would have been discovered.

    The Garda would have been discredited for involving a transient like Martin Graham with drugs, they would have been discredited for coersion of a witness like Marie Farrell, threatening Martin Graham with the IRA if he didn't cooperate - and that all in a court room.

    This would have had more consequences for the Garda than for anybody else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    True.

    I should have stated that I was specifically referring to the new attempts to get DNA from their stored evidence and the risk for their own Garda cross-contamination. Well pawed and handled before Harbisson and forensics arrived.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Likely, although I wasn't clear on whether the gardai were still in possession of those samples, or was there some sort of time limitation etc. for their testing. It is also mentioned that they were trying to get Harbison's sample which I would be surprised they didn't have already. I would say they are having to tread very carefully they don't want to be in a position where there could be a supreme court/ECJ challenge because of some technicality like in the Graham Dwyer case. They might be trying to get explicit approval again for every test run.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I would think with the M-Vac method in general there would be an expectation of some contamination from forensics & investigators far more than in other DNA methods. This would all have to be explained in a trial by the prosecution, and why they can find one person guilty of murder vs coincidental. A good defence lawyer could try and explain away their DNA to a level of reasonable doubt. I think it will be just used as a tool for the gardai to re-interview the suspect, re-test alibis etc. and they would much prefer to get a confession.

    It should be noted that before the investigators came on the scene the initial gardai were extremely hesitant to contaminate anything and pretty much froze. I don't think it is fair to say things were pawed and handled, minimising contamination is probably the only positive to come from their efforts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,439 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I’m not sure what a reasonable explanation will look like though.
    Someone using the gate every other day- if the brick was somehow a place where you might rest one hand whilst opening the gate with the other, then certainly.
    But if the brick were somewhat out of normal reach, then I’m not so sure- you would hope though that if the killer left DNA on the brick that they also left it on her clothing.
    So for me, even people who used that gate regularly- it doesn’t automatically mean their DNA will be on the brick.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I am not really certain how she was killed.

    I always understood that at first she was knocked down with some stone, something picked up or on the side of the road. And after that the killer removed a cavity block from the pumphouse by destroying the roof of the pumphouse and finished Sophie off with many blows to the head. The cavity block was not used to keep the gates from closing or staying open, but from the pumphouse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,440 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    All except the randy fellah from Bantry. He's dead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,440 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Who was the builder that erected this pumphouse?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,440 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    There is the possibility Bailey, or whoever the culprit is, had been wearing gloves.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But the claim from AGS is that he got the scratches during the murder so...?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The randy Guard from Bantry died as well. I think it was in 2001.

    The blood on the boot won't get us very far. Boots could have been anywhere, France, Ireland, so the blood could have been picked up also anywhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,814 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It might. Blood from someone else on your boot? A bit unusual as in I have had many boots over the years but I doubt I have someone else's blood on any of them - I mean what are the chances?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Well, bear in mind as trivial as it sounds, boots are made for walking and they do get around. Meaning she could have picked up that stain anywhere.

    We only know it's not Bailey's and it's apparently also not hers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,172 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I don't think it was blood, it was described as "une trace blanchâtre" on the lace.
    You can see it ringed in red in this photo from reddit.

    The blood drop on the boot being pointed out with the knife was traced back to Sophie.

    Untitled Image

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/comments/vraf9q/forensic_tests_on_the_body_exhibits_and_crime/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,814 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Anywhere? I doubt that, where do you encounter human blood in normal circumstances? Hospital, fight or kitchen sometimes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Normal circumstances would be helping somebody having injured himself or herself, being in close contact with that person, and a bit of blood dropping. Nothing unusual at all. It may happen anywhere and anytime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,814 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    That scenario could be checked out with family to see if that explanation would fly depending on whose blood/DNA it turned out to be. I doubt it would be a regular occurrance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Well, normally one doesn't always help someobody somebody who has an injury every single day. But it's not unusual for that to happen every now and then, and this every now and then, was say, before the trip to Ireland. One doesn't always clean the shoes or boots as well.

    However my gut feeling is that the blood stain is at least from Ireland, rather than from France. But that's all pointless to say, as we have no evidence as to when and where. We may have a who at some point.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Is there any knowledge on whether the boots were ever actually in France (i.e. bought and kept in W. Cork)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,814 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Not sure of this but I think those boots were kept at her house in Cork. They were said to be of Italian make, Furla a premium brand.

    Post edited by saabsaab on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    If I remember correctly, the boots were an Italian brand, quite nice and not cheap. Sophie dressed well!

    I also seem to remember someone saying - maybe a guest who had stayed at the house - that Sophie kept these shoes at the cottage for use as "general" footwear - they were that comfortable!

    A whitish stain on a shoe isn't that unusual - if it was, say, milk that dropped on to it while cooking, or glue from DIY, etc.

    Human DNA, though, on top of the shoe, not the soles or underside, seems to me far less likely. Can't think how it got there!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Looking at the picture, the boots were not exactly clean or well mentained or new, but at least they should be clean. Also don't know if she came in these boots from France of if she kept them at the cottage. The laces also seem dirty, not sure what kind but it appears darker, possibly blood, but if so, we knew about that.

    Sorry, I've mixed that up. Thanks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,439 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I know stranger things have happened but given the location of this DNA- on the boot lace holes, I’m just not convinced there’s much to see here- I would guess it’s an innocent explanation .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It find it strange that testing and examining Sophie's boots only takes place now. I would suggest her boots would have given a very clear indication on how she gotten to the location where she was found? Where did she walk, over the field in front of the house? or on the road leading to the house? Were there any prints indicating she was walking or running?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,439 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “I would suggest her boots would have given a very clear indication on how she gotten to the location where she was found?”

    We can only “imagine” that all of that was looked into- and you’re right the soles of her shoes would have such evidence along with footprints from the house, assuming they weren’t ruined by Gardai traipsing all over the place or a rain shower washing them all away given the length of time between the murder and coroner arriving



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,882 ✭✭✭Xander10


    I am bit clueless with all this DNA. Is the recent examination based on a sample that was taken from the boot at the time and stored or a recent extracted from the boot



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭bjsc


    The blood drop was not traced back to Sophie. The source was never identified.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,172 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Was there even a profile obtained?

    It it not mentioned in connection with Bailey or flagged as an unknown profile.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭bjsc


    The French obtained a profile in 2011. It does not match that of Ian Bailey.



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