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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody has denied that some Gardai helped the IRA and that members of government did too. Was that help pivotal to the sustaining of the IRA’s campaign?
    That would have to be proved with actual evidence. I don’t believe it was based on the evidence I can see. If you have anything concrete please present it.

    We know the British were arming loyalists and colluding with them and we know the allegations surrounding their major bombing of the capital city and my county town. Loyalism was never able to sustain a campaign in the south without collusion = fact.
    We also know they had a British Army unit the FRU operational and killing to stoke tensions. They are implicated by the PSNI legacy team in the killing of 4 people the day after the IRA called a ceasefire in 72 incidentally. There are still evidenced calls for inquiry into multiple killings outstanding.

    The gotcha you are now indulging is just deflection tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The thing is, we are all foreigners here. The previous earlier inhabitants of the island were wiped out by the Celts. Little survives of them and less is known. Our genocidal past is rarely reflected on, neither is our long history of slave-taking. Irish raiders were feared for centuries.

    How long does it take someone to become native? The planters are here longer than the settlers of Australia and America, these are uncomfortable questions for one-nation republicans like yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    The PUL has no form of surrendering U say-

    Loyalists actually handed over their guns to the PSNI when they decommissioned- that's a surrender monkey policy-

    The Provos never handed over a bullet nor a ounce of the hard stuff-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    As we seen recently in Ballymena the loyalists can only do limited violence for a few hours then the PSNI contained that theat- photos of loyalist hoods were put up in the media- over 20 arrested- the loyalist violence halted by the PSNI-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    A question for the United Irelanders. Will a future police service for a united Ireland be armed like the PSNI or unarmed like the Gardai? Or will a partitionist policy apply?

    This is a simple question and doesn't require any knowledge of taxation or finance or expenditure which has been used as an excuse to avoid previous difficult questions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Current trends would suggest that they would be armed. The Gardai have an armed unit already whoch are more and more visible.

    Not something I would relish tbh but pragmatically I think that would be the decision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That would require a significant cultural change in the Gardai.

    The GRA, while in favour of armed detective units, would not support arming all Gardai in the way that the PSNI operate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You asked for our (pro UIers) opinion, not the GRA’s



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    It will be as it is now to do with policing-

    The PSNI for a few more years in the 6 counties in a United Ireland and the Guards in the 26-

    There will be more cooperation and the PSNI run from Dublin but not much else will change-

    Most things will look the same as they do today-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,786 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Most people in Ireland I bet would not like to see the Gardai on our streets armed. Yet another reason not to vote for a U.I.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    You are a very confused person.

    I'm referring to us native Gaels and our country Ireland which is named in our stead. I am not going back to Adam and Eve nor the origins of man in Africa. We native Irish people, the Gael are obviously not foreign to our native country Ireland.

    We native Gaels and our language - as in Goidelic originated exclusively here in Ireland from insular Celtic in the late first millennium BC and early first millennium AD and later spread to what is now called Scotland (named after us Irish people) and the Isle of Mann and some parts of the west coast of Britain.

    Irish and Scottish and Manx are not three different languages that evolved simultaneously or independently. They are all Gaelic as in Irish. Ireland is the Motherland, the petri-dish landmass of Goidelic - the Gaelic language and the Gael. 

    Our Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, originated/evolved in Ireland during prehistoric times - and still dominates to this day, despite all the foreign interference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I was giving my opinion on what might happen.
    If I am correct about Loyalist capabilities and the total clamp down that would await them, who knows, the decision might be made to have a force with armed units in support.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Why would the garda need to be armed more in a United Ireland than they are armed now-?-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If it will be as it is now that means that police in the North would be armed but police in the South would not.

    This is partitionist thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The evidence suggests that the Gaels were invaders that wiped out the previous inhabitants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No, it would be a transition arrangement.
    One of plenty of transition arrangements actual partitionists will leap on, no doubt, hoping to enflame or taunt. Sad and bitter reactions to a UI will be expected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    So we won't have a united Ireland of equals then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    RE: "How long does it take someone to become native? The planters are here longer than the settlers of Australia and America, these are uncomfortable questions for one-nation republicans like yourself."

    It's the foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) that you need to address that question to. And just so you know, the settlers of Australia became - wait for it… Australian and the settlers of America became - wait for it… American. Whereas the foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) in Ireland are not Irish and have never been Irish. They want nothing to do with Ireland or being Irish - except occupy our land in another country's name. If the foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) were Irish, they would obey the will of their fellow Irish people and Ireland would be not be artificially partitioned and not be occupied by a foreign country It's called actual democracy.

    If you don't want to accept that reality, maybe hearing it from the horses mouths below might help you understand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    How so?

    Our security forces already have armed units, the police force will still have armed units. One of those units will be armed if there is a threat from those unhappy with the new constitutional arrangement and the end of NI.

    As that threat diminishes so too will the necessity to bear arms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    The evidence suggests that comprehension is not your forte.

    Not once but twice I addressed this. The following is the third time.

    I'm referring to us native Gaels and our country Ireland which is named in our stead.

    I am not going back to Adam and Eve nor the origins of man in Africa.

    We native Irish people, the Gael are obviously not foreign to our own native country Ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,786 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    So you are admitting at last that there would be a "total clamp down" on loyalists by Republicans in the event of a U.I.? Not sure how that will go down or if you have thought that one through. I could see a few bombs, a few shootings, then maybe an accidental shooting or shootings in an effort to contain a riot (about equal rights or a bonfire or something, or even something like Irish signs being forced in their area / Irish language forced in their schools) and the whole lot could kick off again.

    At least you are admitting a U.I. would not be an Ireland of equal / parties held in equal esteem. Republicans first of course, but I suppose if S.F. were the biggest party you would expect that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody owns 'areas'.
    It is nobody's 'wee country'.

    The country belongs to all.

    I said nothing about 'republicans clamping down' on anyone.

    No thanks to the continued intransigence and foot-dragging of Unionists/Loyalistsd, Ireland is a more equal society than it was pre 1998.

    The hold of the RC is gone here and is unequivocally not coming back and the Unionist Veto is gone and is not coming back. If there needs to be transitory arrangements, so be it. Nobody has suggested a UI will be a nirvana.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Randycove


    so all those Ulster Scots you refer to as foreigners squatting in our house, are actually just Gaels returning to the mother land? Surely they have a right to be here then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,786 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    You let slip about the "total clamp down" on loyalists in a U.I. Who do you think would clamp down on them? It will not be the RUC / British like last time, who caught and jailed thousands of them. Remember first policeman shot dead during the troubles was by loyalists.

    No, in a U.I., it will be Republicans of one sort of another who will be up against the loyalists.

    Cannot see any Gardai or their families voting for a U.I. when they know they will need to be armed in the event of a U.I. , need to check under their car every time they use it etc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To repeat: the IRA campaign achieved nothing after Stormont was abolished. Do you think it did? Why did Irish Republicanism ignore the Sunningdale initiative? Why did it take them 25 years to sign up to essentially the same thing that was the GFA in 1998? (Sunningdale for slow learners according to Seamus Mallon).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If Loyalists try to mount a violent campaign they'll be clamped down by the Irish, British, US, and rest of EU security forces because it is now in all their interests that a UI works.
    This isn't Hollywood, a sustainable campaign needs - secrecy

    * the ability to move around without detection, almost impossible for Loyalists outside their own areas,

    • they need to acquire a steady stream of armaments - also impossible as well, as they simply don't have the network or wherewithal to do that,
    • and they will need the support of the wider Unionist community etc.
    • Read the history, they have tried since 1998 to get a campaign going and ended up meeting up in the upstairs rooms of pubs and everyone knew about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    For starters, the IRA were not at the table for Sunningdale.

    Sunningdale was doomed from the get go because, quite simply Unionists were not ready to share power.

    THEY brought it down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    Two things about that.

    1/ There is no such thing as Ulster Scots in Ireland - but there are foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) Germanic Scots in Ulster (not to be confused and conflated with our fellow Scotti as in Irish in Scotland and who returned to Ireland).

    2/ Our fellow Scotti who returned to what you referred to as the "Motherland" Ireland, should obey the will of their fellow Irish people. It's called democracy.

    Minoritarianism is obviously the antithesis of democracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What ever about the circular argument about natives or non natives the salient fact is, the sectarian bigoted one party statelet supported by Britain is gone and is never coming back.
    Their activity has caused partition to fail and we are headed towards a chance to fix that wrong.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,786 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    You do not think the pIRA and other Republicans eg INLA were clamped down on by the Irish, British, US, and rest of EU security force, after say, Enniskillen, and they still managed to do a lot of damage? Yes or No?

    Is that because you think the pIRA / INLA had a lot of of support south of the border eg help getting started ( Arms trial), help with safe bases to operate from, little or no extradition etc? Yes or No?

    The EU, American and British security forces would not be much use on the ground in N.Ireland in the event of a U.I. and they would have more to do with their resources. You let slip there will be a clamp down on loyalists, it will be Republicans who will take glee in doing the clamping down I bet. Even people like you wanting their bonfires banned. That will go down well. Could picture a Garda riot squad trying to deal with that riot , especially with a few snipers in the crowd and other throwing petrol bombs.



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