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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,946 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    And both these things are true. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    If there was another adjective (akin to the uk based humourous attempts above) other than british to describe the citizenship conferred which did not overlap with the identity choice of half the inhabitants of NI, UKGBNI-ish or someting, then that would work. But the term British (as decided by, the British!) is not correct.

    It may seem petty, but these are thing that people on both sides of the debate get hung up on rightly or wrongly and must be addressed before any unification or any discussions of future state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,946 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Under the CTA which predates all laws referred to here, Irish citizens north and south have automatic right to reside and remain in the UK, and to apply for (shudder) British citizenship after 5 years of mainly uninterrupted residence. So whether or not birthright citizenship is extended for X number of years, the effect of doing so or not would be relatively minor unless the CTA is also changed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,946 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Well done on ignoring the rest of my post and focusing on what has already been discussed.

    Let's get this out there and move on, shall we?

    Yes the current British law as quoted on thread confers what they refer to in the act as 'British citizenship' based on (amongst other criteria) place of birth within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Now. Outside of that, there are two distinct identies in NI, one which self identifies as Irish (as distinct from Irish citizenship - de facto ROI citizenship) and one which self identifies as British (as distinct from British citizenship - as per above - de facto UK citizenship).

    Do you genuinely not see the problems with using identities and geographies interchangeably thus? 'Irish' citizenship is conferred on ROI residents automatically, and is incorrectly referred to in ROI law as 'Irish citizen' when it should be 'ROI Citizen', similarly 'British' citizenship is conferred on NI residents and incorrectly referred to in UK law as 'British citizen' when it should be 'UK Citizen'.

    Historically, leading members of your beloved PUL community would have referred to themselves as Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That is a changeable feast.

    The name of the place you, I and @downcow etc were born is ‘Ireland.

    It is why my heritage and culture is the same as yours and his. Things you don’t like, don’t subscribe to or even hate being a part of that heritage and culture as much as things you like, subscribe to, are.
    We are, by virtue of birth’place’ the Irish people. No temporary law is going to change that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,418 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't think so. Irish citizens don't have any special rights under the CTA to apply for UK citizenship; they can do so on the basis of 5 years continuous residence in the UK, but so can everybody else; that's not a CTA rule.

    Of course, the CTA means that Irish citizens can accumulate 5 years' residence in the UK without needing a visa or anything of the kind. But the fact remains that, in order to become a UK citizen, they actually have to go and live in the UK.

    Which would be a big deal for Ulster Unionists in a United Ireland. I don't think they would want themselves or their children to have to go and livei in the UK in order to be British citizens. They would want a right to British citizenship based on their connection with Northern Ireland, even after NI ceased to be part of the UK. That's not "relatively minor".

    (And the language of the GFA indicates that they should have that right.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I know you do not like it, but the fact is that the people of Ireland cannot make a democratic vote on whether the border is removed or not.  If 100% of the people in Ireland want unification with Northern Ireland, they can jump up and down all they like, but it will not happen.  The border is absolute and critical to this vote and a united Ireland can only happen when the two countries separately decide that they want to join together. Each country has an absolute veto on the matter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    this nonsense that Britain equals Britishness. I assume you will also tell people in the Netherlands the can’t be Dutch, they must be Netherlanders?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody including me has ever disputed this.

    Your need for a strawman argument must be high.

    You labour under the delusion that Unionists can decide to set up a 'homeland' or 'satellite to the motherland' .
    Are you ever going to elaborate on how you plan to get democratic approval for that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    PUL Is a widely accepted term that pulls together the vast majority of the ‘pul’ community.  I’m not sure why that term is starting to annoy you.   Of course it does not include everyone and no term ever could, but this term was used to pull together the strands of people who generally are connected through families and community, and are determined to keep Northern Ireland from being taken over by its stalking neighbour.  

    Lots of other people also feel strongly about keeping Northern Ireland as an entity, but the PUL group are that people that understand each other having spent 100 years building Community.  

    That Community changes and is always evolving, as any community should.

    I know that Francie and the likes will pick on every word I’ve said, but I have made  a honest, broadly universal statement, but of course there are lots of exceptions.  

    Just as a sub note  I was in the room almost 30 years ago where this term was agreed by approximately 100 community representatives, people who struggled to find a name that encompassed us all. We had Protestants saying they were not loyalists, we had loyalist saying they were not unionist, we had unionists who were not Protestant.  But we all agreed we had a very deep connection at Community and identity level and we needed a term or umbrella that we could come under - PUL was born.  

    Much later CNR came in to play, I don’t know if that was just a reaction to our community or whether there are the same genuine deep links within the CNR



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    He was born in the United Kingdom, not in Ireland.

    If you want to use a phrase to cover your view, you can use the phrase "island of Ireland" as it is contained in the Constitution. There is now no legal provision North or South that applies the word "Ireland" to the island.

    So you can say that you, I and downcow were all born on the "island of Ireland", but you cannot say that the name of the place is "Ireland", other that in some colloquial way. However, equally, someone can say that you were born in the British Isles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No problem with the people it describes. I do have a problem with the notion that it has ONE voice. That simply is not true and is easily demonstrated.
    Neither has the C.N.R. community.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    We voted to remove Devs articles 2 & 3 and to replace them with the GFA Articles 2 & 3-

    No room for Dev - GFA has power-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,418 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    To be fair, they do refer to themselves as Netherlanders (Nederlander) as do their immediate neighbours (Niederländer, Néerlandais). It's only the English who call them Dutch. On the whole, in the typical Netherlandish way, they are polite about this, but if you ask them they will tell you that they generally prefer "Netherlander".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Noticeable in the articles on a UI in today's papers that the focus is on the Irish government (or is that 'The island of Ireland Government?) and it's failure to progress a constitutionally approved aspiration. I think this will continue to ramp up.

    ferr.JPG image.png

    *The second article contains a possible explanation for FF's sudden distaste for Eastwood and the SDLP and that things in FF - re: a UI,- could dramatically change with a change of leader.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The angst of those writers reflects the fact that a united Ireland is further away than ever. No politicians outside of Sinn Fein ever give it a moment's thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Apart of course from one of FF's likely next leaders and the current Minister for Justice, Jim O'Callaghan.

    Mr O’Callaghan has outlined a detailed plan for how a united Ireland could function with proposals for a new constitution and a bicameral parliamentary system with one house in Dublin and another in Belfast.

    A united Ireland would be part of the EU and the Eurozone and the South’s current 12.5pc corporation tax rate would be adopted. Unionists would get a certain number of cabinet positions, according to Mr O’Callaghan’s paper which was delivered to an online audience at his alma mater, Sidney Sussex College in Cambridge, on Tuesday.

    Your view of his chances are immaterial here BTW.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    You are basically saying citizenship of a state is not important????? How does anyone get benefits of that state if they dont have membership/citizenship of it?

    Citizenship is important. The irish state was set up for the irish nation of people that come from Ireland. So anyone born in Ireland has a right to citizenship in the same way anyone born in the UK has a right to briish citizenship



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You are basically saying citizenship of a state is not important????? 

    @blanch152 was plumbing the depths to try and salvage something from his expertly debunked (kudos @Peregrinus) argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    The name of the island is Ireland not "island of Ireland" he was born in Ireland if from Down, as he was born in the UK, as Europe stc. The demonym of Ireland is also Irish so when being described as being from Ireland he can also be referred to as Irish even tho he might not use that national identity.

    Ireland is not in one jurisdiction so moote point about no law/constitution refering to Ireland as Ireland. There is no law reffering to Europe as Europe as not in one jurisdiction or Africa as Africa. Are you saying you cant refer to someone as being from Europe and Africa?

    Your hatred of Ireland wants to change its name doesn't.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    So he proposes to extent the current 12.5% corporation tax area, when all other countries resent Ireland having 12.5% corporation tax and are hoping to have it increased? That should p*** off the US, UK, EU all right. And a few unionists getting one or two odd token seats in a cabinet would not last very long or be very workable.

    O'Callaghan is Minister for Migration and many people perceive the country being in such a mess due to migration - which has damaged the availability of housing, in hotel accommodation in places where hotels are full of migrants etc - that he would be better off cleaning up his mess on migration in the country rather than looking to take over part of the UK and all the problems it would bring.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Voter turnout was more than in many referendums here. You accept the result of referendums here, even though the winning side is usually way less that half the electorate. Yet you will not accept the result of a referendum in N.I. even though a clear majority of the electorate voted that they wanted to stay in the UK.

    Tell us this: if the majority of the voters in N.I. had voted to leave the UK, would you have accepted the referendum then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You can argue all you want with him.

    The point made was

    No politicians outside of Sinn Fein ever give it a moment's thought.

    That is demonstratively wrong, one of the possible next leader's of FF has given it considerable thought and is out promoting his thoughts on it. He has also said:

    Mr O’Callaghan told the audience: “It is likely within the 2020s that a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will call a referendum”.


    He isn't the only one either. Those who sat around in parliamentary committee have advised the government to 'begin preparations'. The current FF leader choses to ignore that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I don't have a hatred of Ireland, I am Irish living in Dublin.

    That you automatically assume that someone who doesn't agree with the SF notions of a united Ireland somehow hates Ireland says it all about the exclusive nature of the vision.

    There were significant changes to our Constitution as part of the GFA that are overlooked.

    Firstly, the "Constitution of Ireland" is the title and the Ireland in that refers to the 26 counties. There are references to the "Island of Ireland" in the new Articles 2 and 3 that refer to the 32 counties. There are also references to the Irish nation which includes people beyond the 32 counties.

    Colloquial reference to Ireland as the island is fine, but in talking about citizenship and nationality and the law applicable thereto, being born in Ireland means being born in the 26 counties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    Untitled Image

    RE: "Historically, leading members of your beloved PUL community would have referred to themselves as Irish."

    My comment is not a criticism of your post but is a very important distinction that needs to be made, because the following salient point is always overlooked and not understood when Irish people like to claim the foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) as Irish.

    The foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) have at times referred to themselves as Irish, but only in the context of living in Ireland and being "British Irish" as in being one of the same thing - as in being British, and Ireland being "one of the four" as in one of the "Four British Nations" of the so-called "British Isles" It is a claim, a misappropriation (see above).


    The foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) never considered themselves at one with us native Irish people - they never intermarried with us native Irish. When they referred to themselves as Irish, they were not associating themselves with the actual Irish people, but as stated, only in the context of living in Ireland and being "British Irish" as in being one of the same thing - as in being British, and Ireland being "one of the four" as in one of the "Four British Nations" of the so-called "British Isles".

    The foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) in historical fact wanted nothing to do with us native Irish, or being Irish, except to steal our land and oppress and suppress us, and claim our country Ireland in another country's name.

    My comment means nearly en masse and in general - there are few exceptions which I do not mention but can if needed.

    Post edited by Irish History on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I am not resident in NI. It’s not relevant therefore whether I accept it or not.

    On that question what happened after the referendum and the publication of the British White Paper that flowed from it is interesting from an ‘acceptance! point of view. Guess who refused to accept power sharing not with SF but the SDLP?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Not getting caught up in history but there are no native Irish, the Celts that moved in and are most of our ancestors pushed out and eliminated the previous occupants of this island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    You are a very confused person.

    I'm referring to us native Gaels and our country Ireland which is named in our stead.

    I am not going back to Adam and Eve nor the origins of man in Africa.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    But the name if the island is "Ireland" its not called "island of Ireland"

    Show me one atlas where it says "island of Ireland"

    Notice the name of the link below. Its "ireland" not "island of Ireland"

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

    It you're from Down you're from Ireland. Complete horseshit again saying a person from Down is not from Ireland like you stated a few posts ago.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,791 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    I know you said you are not resident in N.I. but you live very very close to it and you have a huge interest in N.I. politics ( judging by your posting history, nothing wrong with that). The question I asked was "if the majority of the voters in N.I. had voted to leave the UK, would you have accepted the referendum then?" Please try harder to answer. After all, certainly by the 1970s, the British always left any place in the world where the majority of the population voted them out? But in the free and fair referendum in N.I. in 1970, everyone had an equal vote, but just because the majority of the electorate ( not just voter turnout) voted to stay in the UK you reject that?

    So if the vote had gone the other day and the majority of the electorate ( or voters on the day, whichever you prefer ) wanted a U.I. , and you got a U.I., would you have accepted that? Or just wanted to keep up the bombing campaign ( like Bloody Friday, Le Mons) in an attempt to get the Brits / Prods on the ground out anyway?



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