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Why does Ireland speak English?

1246

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭boardise


    I would throw in Spanish which for some reason frequently gets overlooked. It's spoken in the EU , in the USA and a huge swathe of S America..

    Irish people visit Spain very often and it's one of the easier languages to learn imo.I think it should be promoted more.

    If there are not enoughqualified teachers -bring in Spanish/English bilingual teachers from abroad.

    It's the old story -'where's there's a will ..there's a way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭boardise


    Spot on. I hear ads trying to push Irish ( better called Gaelic) where it's stated that learning can be 'fun'.

    This really irritates me . The 'fun' angle in teaching/learnng will take you as far as advanced baby talk and that's that.

    The other problem which few observe is that there is no large scale native speaker community in which one could immerse oneself to comunicate freely and spontaneously across all the domains from news and current affairs to tachnology , law , business ,health ,environment etc.

    But even if there were ,the abiding question overhangs it all -why in God's name would you do it ? Leaving aside eccentrics , hobbyists etc -for the ordinary run of people it would be an unnecessary and futile waste of time. They would be learning an imperfect copy of what they have pefectly already



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭boardise


    I can state as a linguist -there was nothing the new irish State could have done that would have brought about a revivel ( even the thought of it is impossible to process) . The 'revival' movement hadn't a snowball's.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭boardise


    The Gaelic Revival Lobby ( conscious of their need to continue in business) exist in a world of illusion and denial.

    They twist statistics every which way and no one in the media has the wherewithal to challenge and expose them for the con artists they fundamentally are.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    As a nation, we're generally not good at mastering foreign languages.

    Europeans, on the other hand can master English very well. That's because they can immerse themselves in it readily. English is so common a tongue that they could actually spend their whole day speaking it if they wish.

    Not at all. This idea of certain nations not be able to master foreign languages etc…. is not true. It's a question of motivation. If people have the motivation they'll learn enough of a language to do what they need to do. I've worked with lots of Irish people who speak French, German and Italian fluently.

    I was terrible at languages in school scraped a pass in Irish and dropped French because I could not get to grips with it. On top of that I have a hearing difficulty and yet in a 40 year career I have only worked through in English for one year! I spent 5 years work in Irish including arguing cases before the Revenue Commissioners and 35 work in a mix of German, French and the bulk in two Swiss German dialects - I learned them because I needed to, not because I had any love for languages.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,174 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    No, I don't think there is anything sinister or fraudelent about them. It a culture that has grown up - we all accept small success as being something to write home about rather that dealing with the reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    I disagee, they twist their statistics by being ambiguous about what speaking Irish means. Not directly twisting them but indirectly. In my view thats the same thing with regards to having sinister motivations.

    We hear of these massive numbers speaking Irish but what does 'speaking' Irish mean? What level of Irish is required to speak it? Hold a fluent conversation, be able to live through only Irish, order food, ask for directions etc?

    As the poster you replied to pointed out in an earlier post - just because a child can play a singular simple melody on the piano does not mean they can 'play' the piano.

    How many people could actually live their life through Irish, what communities still do and how big are those groups? Thats what actual honest statistics regarding the popularity of the language are. Not a Yes or No option on the census (the options provided for speaking Irish are not clearly detailed enough or explained).

    As with regards to young people reviving the language - the best we can do is a bunch of twats in balaclava's rapping about drugs and the IRA being follwed by teens on tiktok and instagram.... thats not reviving the language - its making a joke out of a corpse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,231 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    It's a cottage industry of well connected people who have been milking the state since its inception to fund their hobby horse and further their careers. And government have to shovel money at them, or risk the blackmail of "abandoning" the language.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,907 ✭✭✭rock22


    I definitely hear much more Irish spoken and particularly by teens and young people. Admittedly i live in the west around many native speakers. But there is more spoken now than there was twenty years ago.

    I would think the language has little utility in a country where almost everyone speaks English, but Irish has a cultural and historical beauty which is surely worth preserving. Even if most, like myself, forget most of what wee learned once we leave school. I would think we all forget a lot we learned in school in later life when we no longer need it or use it. How many of us can remember all of calculus for instance?

    However, government policy around the language seems to be more about preserving the current Gaeltacht populations rather than, in any way , expanding the use of the language. Monet in support of the language needs to be spent in areas where use of Irish is minimal not where is it flourishing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,348 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Not at all. This idea of certain nations not be able to master foreign languages etc…. is not true. It's a question of motivation.

    That's kinda the point of the sentence you're replying to.

    We don't master foreign languages because there's no real need to as we already speak the most widely spoken common language in Europe. And also, we are an Island nation who's nearest neighbour also speaks English as their first tongue.

    And we don't master Irish, because it's useless other than as a kind of badge of honour. Outside of an extremely small enclave (usually quite a smug small enclave), there's absolutely no opportunities to speak it in anything other than at a child's level. So, it's pointless other than as a hobby. Which in and of itself isn't a bad pursuit.

    On the other hand I've been to many places in Europe and 90% of people I've met have been very good at speaking English. This is because they know that they'll need it on some level. This has been more and more essential as I've gotten older and the economy has become more global over my lifetime.

    As I said, many Europeans could spend all day thinking, speaking, reading, listening to, looking at English material if they wanted.

    If I put my mind to it, I could probably master German. The thing is I'd need the time to put aside to do that. However, on the list of things that I need to do, it would be quite low. I might, when I retire, put the time and effort into learning it properly. But at the moment I don't have the motivation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    • Canada (French)
    • South Africa (Zulu, Xhosa, Afrikaans)
    • Singapore (Cantonese, Mandarin)
    • Various Caribbean nations (various creoles)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 Malleeboy


    It could be just as well asked, why does a section of Scotland speak Scottish Gaelic, which was imported from Ireland?

    From 1066 till around 1400, English itself ceased to be the governing, legal, religious language of England. No laws in English, no books in English, none of the upper class spoke English.

    Irish suffered the same fate as Welsh, Cornish. Manx and even Scots.

    Almost none of the Irish diaspora speaks Irish, as they are mostly live in Anglo-speaking countries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 266 ✭✭walkonby


    I am thinking about people who speak English as their first language, at home and at school, and who become bilingual.

    Sfaik, outside of Quebec and a few other places, most Canadians wouldn’t have conversational French, and they aren’t required to study it to high school level.

    English isn’t the first language for most South Africans.

    Singapore and the Caribbean nations are interesting examples.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Middle class welfare like most of the NGO’s. Pretending to care while milking the system for every penny they can pocket for themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,866 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Boards engagement farming is getting progressively worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    I once volunteered as a census enumerator, 2006 if I recall correctly. Nere, ever again.

    Anyway, I came across numerous native Irish speakers who refused to take the Irish version of the form after giving it a once over.

    The complaint was that the language used was unnatural, as if a second rate dictionary was used to translate the English version directly into Irish. Civil Service Irish is how one lady described it.

    I'd say of the 10/15 people who reviewed it only one took the Irish form.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Those who say its a "dead language" should remember that Hebrew was actually dead (except liturgically) until the late 19th century. It's never too late. And its in a better state than Hebrew was as a spoken language before it was revived.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,370 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Not remotely a fair comparison. Hebrew was revived because people wanted to speak it and cherished it as part of their heritage. Irish people just like to pretend that Irish isn't dead and funnel billions off to people who have no interest in reviving it. If Irish people cared about the Irish language, we wouldn't be having this conversation in English.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,348 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    ^

    Also Hebrew was widely used in Yiddish. So it was never dead in the same way that Irish is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yiddish is basically a dialect of German. It's written using the Hebrew alphabet and it has a lot of loan-words from Hebrew, but saying that Hebrew wasn't dead because of Yiddish is a bit like saying that Latin isn't dead because English uses the Latin alphabet and has a lot of loan-words from Latin.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,348 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Yiddish is a mixture of languages, including Hebrew.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yiddish isn't a "mixture of languages"; it's a language of its own. It has influences from other languages, but that's not unusual; all languages have influences from other languages.

    It's a West Germanic language, its closest living relatives being the varieties of German spoken in Switzerland, Bavaria and Franconia. The common ancestor of all these is Middle High German; Yiddish emerged from MHG in the 12th century (about 900 years after Hebrew had ceased to be a vernacular language).

    It has a significant vocubulary drawn from Hebrew, but this needs to be put in context; about 65-70% of Yiddish words are German in origin; about 15-20% are Hebrew in origin; about 10-15% are Slavic in origin. There are some words - less than 5% - that come from Italian, old French or other Romance languages. Yiddish grammar, syntax and phonology is almost entirely German, with Slavic and (minor) Hebrew influences.

    Yiddish and Modern High German are about as similar as Dutch and Modern High German are. They are not really mutually intelligible as spoken languages, but a speaker of one of the languages can usually puzzle out a simple text written in the other (provided the Yiddish text is rendered in Latin script). Yiddish and Hebrew, by contrast, are completely different languages; a Hebrew speaker (who did not also know German) would recognise some of the words in a Yiddish text but would likely have no idea what any of the sentences or paragraphs meant.

    Arabic, Aramaic, Maltese and even Amharic would be much, much closer to Hebrew than Yiddish is. If you want to argue that Hebrew wasn't a dead language because of the its similarity to still-living languages, then these languages, rather than Yiddish, are the ones you would point to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,348 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I know what Yiddish is, but you have it your way if you want.

    Either way, Irish is dead and it isn't coming back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Too much of the Irish language policy, unfortunately, is about giving jobs and money to those who already speak Irish, there's little chance of a revival in any true sense of the word. Examples often given of the "success" of Irish language policy are things like its recognition as an official language of the EU. But this just means more money for existing Irish speakers doing the translation, and does nothing for Irish as a living spoken language. No one is going to learn Irish so that they can read EU documents translated into Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,231 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    As an everyday language it might as well be dead. A total revival a la Hebrew is never going to happen, at best irish is a linguistic plaything. Israelis needed to implement a single common language so settlers from all over the world could communicate and * cough cough * mark themselves apart from those they took land from.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Irish isn't a dead language. It's a minority language and a threatened language, but it's the primary vernacular for a non-trivial number of people, and original poetry, literature and songs continue to be produced in Irish. These things all set it apart from a dead language.

    Could it become a more widely-spoken language? Well, Hebrew isn't the only example of a language that has been revived in this way. Hebrew was a dead language; perhaps a closer analogy to the situation of Irish is Czech, which after the Hapsburg takeover of Bohemia and Moravia in 1620 was almost entirely supplanted by German,and by the nineteenth century Czech survived only among peasants in remote areas. (Sounds familiar?) An intellectual-led and very consciously nationalism-inspired cultural and linguistic revival movement worked to restore it as the national language; by the time Czechoslovakia was established in 1918 Czech had again become the most-used language in the Czech lands, and it still is today. Welsh and Maori would be other examples of of languages that declined severely but have been signficantly revived. though not to the point of becoming the primary national language of their respective countries.

    I think the Gaelic revival movement of the late nineteenth-century modelled itself on the Czech movement, and it did acheive considerable success. The parallels between the two situations are close, and why the Czech movement succeeded while the Irish ultimately did not is an interesting historical speculation; I think myself that the Irish civil war may be part of the answer, in that it took a lot of idealism out of the nationalist movement in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Czech, however, never died out as a private language of the people in homes and in rural areas. It stopped being used as an official public language. That is all.

    Irish suffered a more profound death in Ireland, and I think one of the problems in reviving it here is a lack of understanding of that fact. Because we haven't acknowledged the full extent of its decline in Ireland, thinking it is more like the Czech situation, we have concentrated on making it more official rather than making a serious effort at reviving it as a living language.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭Ceathran


    It's far from useless. It is the most beautiful language in the world. It is spoken all over the world. It has the misfortune of being in "modern Ireland", which is a different country from the Ireland that was. It is an official EU language and there are lots of Irish-language translators and interpreters in the EU. It has a rich literature.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭Ceathran


    Absolutely. And it's spoken all over Latin America. I have never understood why German is taught in schools here. Italian is an odd one too since it's spoken in Italy only. Well, and in pockets of Switzerland too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭Ceathran


    In many Gaeltacht areas the Irish is very Englishy in terms of syntax and vocabulary. And it's common in other countries to mix languages. In the Philippines, for example, people use lots of English. Would you say that the people of Cebu don't have Cebuano because they use English words? There are no words for 'hello' and 'goodbye' in Cebuano.



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