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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    To clarify, in the picture of the front door lock, do you mean that the door is not locked at the point the picture is taken? Therefore either Sophie wasn't locked out at all, or alternatively the gardai unlocked the door before they took the picture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,576 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    It would depend on when the photo was taken. If it was taken on Monday by Pat Joy, the front door may have been unlocked and he just pushed it open and photographed it as he found it.
    If it was taken by the forensics team from Dublin they would have had to unlock the door to take the photos, unless of course they entered by the back door. We know the house was locked up when they arrived at 10pm. I don’t know for sure the state of the locks at 10am when Sophie was found, but I suspect the front door was unlocked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Interesting, I had been under the impression they had to wait for Josie to open the house up with the keys, can't remember where I heard that, but it sounds like the house may not have been locked shut at all then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Inspector Liam Horgan told Paris Match in January 1997 that the door had been slammed shut and it was impossible to re-enter the house because the keys remained inside. The clear implication is that both doors were locked. In the same article Josephine Helen was quoted as saying that a poker was missing from the fireplace. The most likely scenario was an initial confrontation at the door and Sophie had likely armed herself with the poker, which would indicate that she didn`t know her assailant or alternatively she knew him and feared him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    I've always puzzled over that "poker" comment. In some tellings, the poker is missing: in other versions, it is a hatchet for firewood.

    Were BOTH such items missing? Mrs Hellen knew the house well: she'd know what was normally there, and where things were kept.

    Whichever it was, the fact that it (or they) have never been recovered does certainly imply a connection with the crime.

    I can't guess what happened; possibly Sophie took a weapon with her to confront an intruder. If things got ugly, it could have been used against her. This is always a risk when a woman takes a weapon when facing an aggressive man!

    If this item was used in the actual attack, where is it now? Million-dollar question!

    I'd have chucked it into the sea, off a cliff - but I've never murdered anyone :-)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,576 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    So did I in fairness, it might still be the case. But why stage a photo with the locks ln unlocked state.

    Maybe the Gardai let the door slam behind them and could not re-enter until Josie turned up at noon with her keys.

    Edit;

    I suppose it doesn’t really matter whether she locked herself out or not, Once Sophie left the house and went down the lane to meet her killer she never got back to her door anyway.

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,430 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    A lot - according to the barman on duty that night. Six pints and, just before closing, a large whiskey downed in one go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,430 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Bailey and Jules noticed lights on in Sophie's earlier in the evening - did they not ? You remember when they stopped the car at that vantage point looking down the valley towards it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,430 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Doesn't sound like Bailey though, does it? That element of pre-planning. Alcohol is an emboldener. People under the influence lose their inhibitions. Ian chances his arm and fancies his chances with Sophie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,130 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    They'd be doing well to see a light if this commentary posted earlier to the thread is accurate:

    You can't see Sophie's house or Alfie Lyons's from Hunt's Hill unless you have a telescope, its 4 km away. That is in daylight. At nighttime it's impossible. In 1996, Sophie's house did not have a light on the eastern gable. She had a light over her back door, but this faces west and is not visible.

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    In terms of her injuries, which were extensive and all over, what does the evidence say? Does it point to one person or more that come person as the perpetrator?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I hope Jules was driving that night.

    Six pints and one large whiskey is quite a volume for a one hour hike at night, kill a woman, leave no trace and return…..

    They should have given his liver a special funeral with all honours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Harbison doesn't note the presence of multiple perpetrators, I think he doesn't speak about it at all so perhaps he would have mentioned if he thought it was a possibility. He does call out that Sophie has numerous defensive wounds, and she seems to have put up a fight, so to me that would seem that she was capable of defending herself, which would indicate only one person attacking imo. With two people you would think one would be holding, and the other attacking.

    The rest of the evidence doesn't really point to any additional person either as far as I can tell. Having said that, would it be possible for one person to attack, and the other not participate at all (This is what people would say who think Jules was with Bailey), or perhaps for a two-phase attack one person attacked in a rage, and the other was the one to decide to kill, no witnesses etc.? Possible, but I don't think you could tell either way from the evidence or autopsy in either instance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 201 ✭✭Mannesmann


    No the evidence does not support 2 people or one for that matter. However, the frenzied attack with more than one weapon and the lack of evidence could suggest 2. One cool headed clearing up and finishing off and another enraged?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭Zola1000


    To note also weather they could see lights or not per Odyssey, it's highly unlikely, I'm pointing out how would IB or anyone know someone was or wasnt staying with her..without element of preplanning.

    It's strange to me last person that would definitely know was Daniel per phone but Alfie and Shirley may have known also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I know I am very much in the minority here but I do firmly believe there is more pointing towards preplanning than unplanned.

    If it's about two poeple, it's that automatically Alfie and Shirley came to mind, especially as they were not exactly friends with Sophie and they were the only ones very close during the night of the murder. They would also have known Sophie was alone. Alfie doing the killing Shirley doing the cleaning up, missing the stain on the door.

    And then there are these reports of two Frenchmen hiding out in West Cork from some French underworld organization?

    The stain on the door is one thing that puzzles me a lot. If the killer was alone, did he go back, and if so for what reason, or was Sophie injured right at the door? Or were they two?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    The one person that DEFINITELY must have known was the housekeeper, Mrs Hellen.

    At least I presume she must have been told how many people would be staying at the house when she went there to open up, turn on heating, and put milk in fridge etc (or whatever the usual routine to make the house ready for occupation)

    She may have mentioned it to her family, too, I suppose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭Zola1000


    I guess I'm more thinking of potential perpetrators but yes her family definitely and Mrs Hellen. But let's say it was someone she was only recently in contact with and it might not be something Mrs Hellen might know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭Zola1000


    Well I don't think it's unreasonable for that one element of pre planning to know it's her first time travelling alone, and she will be alone in house on that weekend... The rest could be unplanned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,130 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    That reminds me. While call records werent available for technical reasons at the Irish end, the French never seem to have produced the French call log for Daniel to verify his timings for the calls on the night of the murder.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    There is no factual proof either way. I am always surprised that about those who continue to insist it was unplanned.

    However whoever visited Sophie that night/morning went there for a specific reason he didn't go there for a chinwag and a natter.

    The reason is unclear, but apparently a phone call wasn't enough. It had to be in person. This would imply it was important. So what was so important? We don't know.

    One strong guess is that the killer wanted to refrain Sophie from doing something, or convince her in any other way. Even if Sophie agreed, this would also imply that if Sophie changed her mind later on, her mere existence of Sophie would always have been a risk to the killer.

    So he started to make plans. When was she alone? When was she at her cottage? At what time am I least been seen or noticed?

    These are my deductions.

    Even if it was unplanned rage, it's hard to consider where this rage would have come from? Visiting a house in a remote part of Ireland for one week? And even less?

    Even if it was an argument among neighbours? An opened or closed gate would have to be tolerated no matter, if it's just for one week. Anybody would have accepted an unliked neighbour for one week given there were months in between….

    A rage due to sexual rejection? A bit unlikely to wait for possibly many months for a sexual encounter with a woman who was so rarely at this address?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “A rage due to sexual rejection? A bit unlikely to wait for possibly many months for a sexual encounter with a woman who was so rarely at this address?”

    Yeah, I mean it was 1990s thinking- a “theory”- and likely developed by Gardai to fit the case around Bailey. There appears to be no evidence to support a sexual motive- so why introduce one in the first place? Did evidence submitted to the DPP include any evidence of a sexual motive ie torn under garments etc?

    I think it’s important to challenge this as it’s fundamental to the overall investigation and where that investigation goes.

    I said before, there are now decades of data on attacks on women - her injuries may now hold some answers into the motivation behind the attack and the type of person who carried it out - it may well be a sexually related attack or have the signs of such an attack based on the data - but it would be good to see an updated Garda statement on that aspect given the current cold case review



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The sexual motive for Bailey seems to be a rather persistent idea which doesn't go away.

    Did Bailey make a pass or come on to women in the pub? ( And I am sure, he spent a lot of time in pubs)

    Did Bailey ever attempt rape or rape a woman?

    Did Bailey ever touch a woman inapproriately?

    Did Bailey ever cheat on Jules?

    Was Bailey involved in a brawl or any other kind of pub fight or affray?

    None of these things happened, as far as I know, and you can correct me if I am wrong.

    But still the only motive for Bailey seems to be sexual and rage. Why?

    Him beating up Jules only happened in the confines of his own home but never towards others.

    I am aware there is no proof either way, but a sexual motive for Bailey seems unlikely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭Zola1000


    That would be really interesting to understand more in this area. Like to me it's not just phone call. It's confirmation that she's home and alone.

    Then a long shot but he phones someone else to indicate to proceed. Yes far fetched I know.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Yes far fetched I know

    That is part of the problem with the case - every theory is far fetched and the facts that we're aware of don't support any one theory.

    Out of curiosity and changing the subject slightly, what was the need to come to Ireland right before Christmas. The plumbing task could have been managed here by Josie. Why exactly did Sophie come here? Why did she come despite the people she did ask to join her declining the offer? Despite her and Daniel being somewhat estranged, why did she phone him that night (and not earlier) (or did he phone her)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭csirl


    The random aggrevated burgalry theory fits all the known facts.

    Couple of lads driving around looking for a remote house to burgal. A couple of days before Christmas, so most houses filled with gifts etc.

    Drive up to gate. SDTP sees them and goes down to investigate. Things escalate - they incapacitate her and finish her off with the block. One of them goes up.to the house to check if there are any witnesses. They dissappear quickly in their blue fiesta.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It would be a good explanation as well. Only objection would be the car Sophie parked outside indicating somebody is home. Anybody looking for a remote house to break into would have probably have picked the Richardson's.

    However like all the others, there is no proof for or against. It's possible it happened, there is even a good likelyhood, but then again, it could also not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “The random aggrevated burgalry theory fits all the known facts.”

    I’m not disagreeing and I don’t believe that’s a “far fetched” theory - agrivated burglaries where serious injury or death occurred was (and probably still is) a feature of rural Ireland but I thought it hit a high point in the 2000s- not sure if it was so common in 1997 but I stand corrected on that. You wouldn’t rule it out today, certainly, given such news stories through the years - but in 1997? I’m not sure it was a “thing” then.

    But It fits more than the theory of a drug dealer getting caught going about their unlawful work- in that scenario, I have argued in the past that the last thing they would wish to do is engage with a member of the public - they would “flight” not fight.

    Saying that - for me it would have to be a burgler on coke or something - an ordinary decent burgler would again have flight not fight on their minds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,527 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Is there such a thing as an 'ordinary decent burglar'?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    It’s just an expression- not to be taken literally - I think my point is understandable to most



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