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Northern Ireland 2125?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Randycove


    sorry, which countries are you referring to when you say world opinion?

    The US? Canada? France and/or Spain?
    Maybe the Netherlands or Denmark?

    Pretty every single border we recognise today came about through colonialism, imperialism and partitioning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,413 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody was talking about recognised borders that are accepted.

    What I was referring to was:
    A. Borders that have caused the conflict/war on the scale it did here would be seen as wrong in most western democracies.

    B. Borders that continue to cause problems not just for the inhabitants of a place but for the smooth running of entities like the EU and indeed the UK itself.
    C. Borders that were just wrong from the get go and created artificial majorities that didn't disappoint and used that majority to supress and discriminate.

    No democrat or reasonable person wants to be on the side of history that condones or prolongs that, is the point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think we are both i.e. that the Ulster Scots people have been here for 400+ years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    absolutely. Here is 10 to get us going, but I am struggling to think of any countries who were not formed or borders shaped by colonialism?

    1. United States
    2. Canada
    3. Brazil
    4. India
    5. Pakistan
    6. Nigeria
    7. South Africa
    8. Indonesia
    9. Australia
    10. Mexico


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,413 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I can see why folk won’t address uncomfortable questions or will allow points to sail over their heads and pretend they were about something else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,205 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    The planters need to go home.

    That will solve all the problems.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    it is amazing how quickly this descends into republicans telling us we are ‘most backward imbeciles in Europe’, planters, colonisers, really Irish, we should go home, etc, etc. and avoid dealing with the original question.
    I get it that you are hurting that ni still exists. In 1921 it was meant to disappear in 5 years. We’ve had endless predictions about our disappearance ever since. Gerry said we’d be away by 2016. It’s starting to sound a bit like those fundamentalist Christian’s telling us the date of the second coming.
    my goodness you even have the regions majority now and you can’t nudge up the figures. It keeps slipping from your figures. Those pesky moderate catholics who have become unionist and those pesky nationalists that support the ni football team and those pesky shinners who are now saying Northern Ireland should continue.
    I understand it’s depressing for you, but no need for the insults



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Does ( Northern ) Ireland really exist when the 1920 government of Ireland act was removed by the GFA-

    Act(s of Union got the boot-

    Do U support the all Ireland rugby 🏉 team -



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,413 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It's really sad that cannot see that what the British did here in your version of history is the exact same as they have done to you again and again.

    Since it became politically expedient to them to end the Unionist veto they have been shafting you and back you will go for more.

    We get them to sign the dotted line now when they make agreements, we learned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,205 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Your people.

    The ones who murdered the natives back in the 1600s and took their land by force.

    The same people who set up an apartheid regime in the North for over 50 years since partition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I personally don’t support the Ireland rugby team, although I have some grammar school Protestant friends who do support them.
    I have sat down at times intending to try and support them but by the time we reach the kickoff, and I have watched flags used and listened to anthem, I have swung my allegiance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    If there is ever a united Ireland poll, I hope you, and many like you, are a big part of the discussion – you will drive so many moderates away from a united island



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    I can't mock U for not supporting the all Ireland rugby team which represents where U are from because I don't support the ( Northern ) Ireland soccer team and I am from Tyrone- ( although there were a few cheers in our house during the 82 world cup-

    Sport like everything else gets complicated at times-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    And how many Loyalists / Unionists will drive moderates towards a 32 one Ireland-

    It works both ways-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    absolutely, there will be family sitting in my house supporting the Ireland rugby team, while I am there mildly supporting the opposition.
    Complicated it certainly is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yes, I agree again with you.
    Not sure it is the loyalist that are the problem (but maybe I am wrong). I reckon more triggering on nationalists would be the middle class unionist (Ireland rugby supporting) dinosaurs. The loyalist (northern Ireland football supporting) ordinary folk imho are much more open and inclusive



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Just on that point I worked hard for many years to try to get the national anthem dropped from Northern Ireland football matches. I have given up - the majority of the Northern Ireland supporters do not want it but unfortunately the grey suits of the Ifa have zero courage and giveaway to the extremists on both sides from outside football.

    I would be interested in your opinion of whether anything could be done that would enable you to feel that this was your team and you wanted to support it.


    and tbh my interest was in supporting the large number of catholics who play for the team and the increasing number of moderate Catholics who support the team - I think it may be understandably a step too far for people like you?
    and I completely support the right of people to support whatever team they wish - that seems a very basic right to me



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    Their families have been on that land for generations. I don’t think they will be going anywhere soon.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,413 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They are all apart of my Irish heritage and what it is that makes us who we are as an island people. I wouldn't want them to go anywhere.
    As the rugby team has admirably shown with compromise and acceptance great things can be achieved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,944 ✭✭✭blackbox


    You make it sound very unattractive for anyone to want to join with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,413 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why would I sugar coat it?

    NI is broken because of partition. That's a verifiable fact. It wasn't designed to be democratic and that was why it inevitably failed all the people (if Unionists were honest they would realise it has failed them too) and because the problems were ignored went up in flames.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,413 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Interesting comments from Mary Lou McDonald at Féile yesterday.

    First pointing out the huge anomaly and hypocrisy at the heart of our current leaderships 'Shared Island', equal citizens talk.

     it is “crazy” that people in Northern Ireland cannot vote for the Irish president, adding that “there is no reason why it [a referendum on the issue] shouldn’t go ahead”.

    “The idea that you can live in Belfast, and you could be a candidate in the election, you could be elected president as Mary McAleese was, but you can’t vote, is crazy,” she said.

    “It smacks actually of a gerrymander. If we’re all equal citizens, if every Irish citizen is equal, how on earth does anybody justify that discrimination? And especially for Irish citizens living in Ireland.”


    She then spoke about being British in a UI, and addressed the same potential anomaly or hypocrisy arising:

    “Those who are British now, in a partitioned Ireland, they will be British in a united Ireland.

    And actually, the question isn’t so much for us, the question is for the British system.

    “We will need guarantees from the British state that they will honour that reality in terms of their papers, their passports, and access to whatever other rights entitlements or privileges might accrue to someone by virtue of being a British citizen.

    “That will not be for the Irish state or for a reunited Ireland to confer on any individual. I absolutely respect it. If somebody is British, they are British. That’s no threat to any of us.”

    The GFA that many Unionists hate is their guarantee IMO, they need to ensure the British observe and honour it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow



    Here it is in full
    𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗚𝗮𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗰 𝗢𝗰𝗰𝘂𝗽𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝗜𝗿𝗲𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗱
    𝙄𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝘽𝙚𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙂𝙖𝙚𝙡𝙨: 𝙏𝙝𝙚 𝙁𝙞𝙧𝙨𝙩 𝙄𝙣𝙫𝙖𝙨𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙍𝙤𝙤𝙩𝙨 𝙤𝙛 𝙐𝙡𝙨𝙩𝙚𝙧’𝙨 𝘽𝙧𝙞𝙩𝙞𝙨𝙝 𝙄𝙙𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙞𝙩𝙮

    Long before the myth of Ireland as an eternal Gaelic land took root, the island was home to distinct and ancient peoples, notably the Cruthin and the Ulaid. These were the true indigenous inhabitants of the northern part of the island, with strong cultural and kinship ties to parts of what we now call western Scotland and northern Britain. Their language, identity, and traditions predated the Gaelic era entirely.

    That all changed with the arrival of the Gaels, a wave of Iron Age settlers from the Northern Galacian region of the Iberian Peninsula, which in today's terms is Northern Spain and Portugal and later from what became Gaelic-speaking Scotland. Far from being a peaceful cultural exchange, their arrival marked a brutal and sustained conquest. These were not enlightened settlers or cultural missionaries. They were tribal warriors, expanding violently and forcibly assimilating or expelling native peoples as they pushed across the island.

    In Ulster, the Cruthin and Ulaid were among the first to feel the weight of this Gaelic incursion. Pushed from their lands, many were forced to flee eastward, across the narrow sea to what is now western Scotland and northern England. These displaced peoples didn’t disappear. In time, many of their descendants would return to Ireland, ironically, as part of the Ulster Plantation, not as conquerors but as settlers reconnecting with the land of their ancestors.

    Yet today, a convenient myth has taken root in much of Irish nationalist and republican thinking, the idea that Gaels are the original, native Irish, and that all others are “foreigners” or “planters.” It is an idea rooted more in political convenience than historical fact. The Gaels themselves were invaders. They imposed their language, customs, and political structures on a land that already had its own rich culture and indigenous people. If colonisation is defined by the displacement of native peoples and the imposition of a dominant culture, then Gaelic expansion in Ireland fits that bill to a tee.

    An Ancient Connection: Ulster and Britain

    What the romantic Gaelic nationalist version of history fails to grasp is the depth of the connection between Ulster and the wider British Isles, going back long before the modern United Kingdom came into being. The Irish Sea was never a barrier. It was a bridge.

    The early peoples of Ulster, like the Cruthin and Ulaid, had kinship and cultural links with the people of western Scotland, northern England, and beyond. These connections were not forged in colonial boardrooms or modern treaties, but in shared ancestry, migration, trade, and alliance, long before the Gaels ever set foot on the island.

    Over time, that connection has only deepened. Whether through the Plantation of Ulster, the development of industrial cities like Belfast, or the shared sacrifice in wars under the British Crown, Ulster’s place in the British family of nations has been long-standing, organic, and hard-earned.

    It is not a product of conquest but of continuity, the reclaiming of ties that were never truly broken, despite centuries of displacement, war, and political revisionism.

    The Real Revisionists

    Today, those who shout loudest about colonisation often overlook the fact that Ireland was colonised long before any English soldier ever set foot here, not by foreign empires but by Gaels who displaced older populations. The first invaders were not the Normans, or the English, or the Scots. The first invaders were the Gaels.

    The term Gael itself translated from the Roman name of Gall or Gaul means foreign invader.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,205 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Unfortunately the job wasn't finished in 1641.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭csirl


    This sounds like someone re-wrote history to suit their narrative.

    Various waves of stone age and iron age settlers came to Ireland and Britain thousands of years ago and civilisation gradually emerged. We didnt get some of the later waves that the UK did e.g. Romans, Anglo-Saxions .

    The idea that a bunch of displaced former stone age people sat around Scotland for maybe 5,000 years waiting to reclaim lands in Ulster via the Plantations is nuts!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,413 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It's of no consequence bar schoolyard 'youse are as bad' oneupmanship.

    The harsh facts are that partition is a disputed and still not resolved fact of life.



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