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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I didn’t say Northern Ireland existed. I said the piece of land was under the same authority. It’s not that complicated. Whoever lived on my wee patch of ground 400 years ago was under the same authority as I am now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    We’re weren’t colonised, maybe you were, but I wasn’t



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Fermanagh, Antrim, Down, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh have been under the British Crown for substantially longer than 100 years, the other 26 counties left, the state now known as NI didn't have a change of rule, therefore the statement is not wrong. If Cork struck out on it's own tomorrow, would you say that Ireland has only been a Republic since that day?

    We're getting bogged down in a pretty pointless semantic argument, but it is certainly easy for anyone to understand the argument that what is now NI has been under continuous British rule going back to before NI existed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady



    It was your opening downcow. 😁

    I am interested in peoples thoughts about the future of Northern Ireland.   As things stand OWC ranks fifth in the world of areas under the same continuous authority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    which statement was wrong.
    would you be more comfortable if I said County Down was under same authority - but I guess that doesn’t work either as I think it was those big bad brits who introduced counties



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Maybe if you resigned your role as a teacher Fionn? It's a little bit patronising.

    NI did not exist in 16, 17 or 1890.
    To reference it before it was created is therefore 'wrong'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    What is now called NI has been under British rule for substantially longer than 100 years. Happy?

    While my post may seem patronising, yours seems intentionally obtuse with no other reason than giving you some sort of perceived win over someone posting from a Unionist perspective.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭steinbock123




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The entire statement and the premise based on it is wrong.

    I get what you are trying to do but it is wrong.
    You are trying to make the case for the continuation of something on bogus grounds, 'NI' has only existed since partition and under the authority it has been has failed as a Wee Country and now requires an international agreement between two sovereign countries just to function.
    No 'country' that calls itself successful requires a similar international agreement just to function on a day to day basis.
    That 'agreement' has within it the mechanism to end NI.

    How are you going to get those clauses changed @downcow



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I think this is a bit tendentious.

    First of all, it only looks at the continuous authority of monarchies. San Marino has been an independent republic continously since the third century AD; it's not on the list. France has been a united nation-state continuously since 843 AD but is omitted from the list because (I suspect) it has transitioned between monarchical and republican forms of government during that time. But if that's a reason for not counting France as an example of "continuous authority" then we have to be consistent; England, Ireland and Scotland were all subject to a republican form of government under Cromwell, so continuous authority can't go back before (at the earliest) 1660, when the Commonwealth came to an end and they became monarchies again.

    There's also an obvious anomaly in treating Scotland has having experienced a break in continuity in 1707, but not England. Both kingdoms underwent exactly the same development in 1707. If the new Kingdom of Great Britain was a new authority in Scotland, then it was also a new authority in in England (and, since the Kingdom of Ireland was dependent on the English crown, in Ireland). And of course both the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain were replaced by the United Kingdom in 1801; on what basis do we treat 1707 as being a break in continuity of authority in Scotland, but not treat 1801 as being a break in continuity of authority in Ireland?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No, as I explain above, the premise downcow makes on foot of bogus info is fundamentally wrong as a result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I find this a much more interesting discussion than, 'nuh uh, NI didn't exist therefore there is no merit to the discussion of how long that area has been under continuous authority'.

    Not to blow too much smoke up your hole, Peregrinus but I do enjoy your contributions on these topics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭csirl


    Im very optimistic about unification. I think it will happen within the next 20 years and I think it will be relatively peaceful. Yes, you may get a few housing estates in certain poorer parts of the north rioting for a few days, but it will die down and people will get on with it.

    I see from other threads that downcow is advocating parts of the NE of NI getting independence i.e.becoming a unionist country (ironically not part of the union!) That's not happening. The UK government will enforce the Good Friday Agreement - they will be in breach if they dont. If it happened (very unlikely) any violent seperatist NI group will be dealt with quickly by the UK security forces.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ireland would be a small country to adopt a federal constitution, but it wouldn't be the smallest — Bosnia and Herzegovina, Micronesia, St Kitts and Nevis, the Comoros Island and St. Kitts and Nevis are all examples of countries with a smaller population than a united Ireland would have (7.2 million) but that have federal constitutional structures. And Switzerland would be a famous example of a federation with a population not hugely greater (9 million). Also Belgium with 11.7 million.

    Of course, an Ireland in which the 6 counties had its own legislature and executive but the 26 counties did not would not be a true federation — more like a unitary state, but with an autonomous region having its own local political institutions, subordinate to the national institutions. Again, there are existing examples with populations not smaller than or not hugely bigger than that of a united Ireland — Finland (5.6 million); Denmark (6 million); Portugal (10.4 million).

    Back in the day, what was then provisional SF advocated a four-province federal Ireland. At the time they proposed this, a 9-county Ulster would have had a protestant/unionist majority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Those who think a separatist militia would have the wherewithal to sustain a destabilising campaign are totally deluded and don't understand the previous conflict.

    Belligerent Unionists do not have the hinterland that was available to the native population. It's as simple as that.

    Unless they have the collusion of the UK authorities a separatist group would not have a hope. They'd be hemmed in very quickly and would indeed only be left with the option of wrecking their own areas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,415 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ulster was colonised; it's a well-documented historical event that profoundly affects the place to this day. I don't think an approach to the future of Northern Ireland that relies on an airbrushed version of history is likely to be successful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Ireland has a 32 county rugby / cricket team- soccer will adjust also-

    The Assembly will stay up in a United Ireland but Unionists will be no longer in a first or deputy minister position- alliance will be a good deputy-

    The UUP is dissappearlng- DUP will not grow and the 3rd wing the TUV will crash Unionists out-

    OWC is Sinn Féins-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Using the correct terminology? Whatever next Pere! 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I don't think Downcow was arguing that it wasn't colonised, but rather gloating that his ancestors were the colonisers rather than the colonised.

    Like most in NI, my own ancestry has a mixture of both. I suspect Downcow's is the same even if he pretends it's just good old Ulster Protestants all the way back and they'd never intermix with those pesky Fenians.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 780 ✭✭✭Bitcoin


    This is true. As the balance tilts more towards those of an Irish persuasion, the question becomes more important than ever.

    in hindsight the Brits made a balls out of partition. If they had left out Tyrone and Fermanagh (Catholic majority) and hacked off parts of Armagh/Derry, partition would have been permanent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A strategic failure of Unionism (some did try to exclude those parts) that has had and will have long term consequences.

    NI has never worked as a result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Northern Ireland 2125.

    Religion. Majority atheist, then Muslim, Christian, Spiritual, other ….

    Allegiances, These islands/ Europe.

    Orange & Green (old school ideas) consigned to the history books

    Economy, Hydrogen car manufacturing, ship building (again) + Solar farms, wine & beer production due to warmer climate.

    Stable economy, stable society, settled and free from any major "troubles".

    Neither British nor Irish, as these concepts have long since been replaced with non nationhood, non national identities.

    Post edited by Hamsterchops on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    There will be no grubby little British exclave referred to as "northern" Ireland in 2125.

    I very much doubt it will still be a thing in 2050 either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I can’t imagine what the UK forces would have to do with if a part of your new Ireland was agitating for a homeland - unless of course it would be your intention to bring the Brits in to police the island?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Exactly



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So these separatists will only begin when the UK physically leave?

    Not a great strategy but hey ho!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    that is a matter of opinion.
    The normal understanding of colonisation is usually were a large power invades a distant land a distant land to which it had no previous contact and steals its resources.
    The north east of Ireland was different. There had been exchanges of people for thousands of years, Britain industrialised it and poured money in, and 90% of my ancestors arrived as economic migrants outside of the time of the plantation. So I am not defending all that happened but to describe it as colonisation is a bit of the



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The normal understanding of colonisation is usually were a large power invades a distant land a distant land to which it had no previous contact and steals its resources.

    It's not a 'normal' understanding, it's a handy understanding plucked from your own lack of knowledge.

    Where do you see the word 'distant' in this standard meaning of the term?

    noun: colonisation

    1. the action or process of settling among and establishing control over the indigenous people of an area."Africa boasts a tradition of higher education institutions that predate Western colonization"
      • the action of appropriating a place or domain for one's own use."the complete colonization of television entertainment by reality shows"
      • Ecologythe action by a plant or animal of establishing itself in an area."lower airway bacterial colonization"

    or this one?

    colonisation, colonise

    col·​o·​ni·​sa·​tion, col·​o·​nise

    British spellings of colonizationcolonize

    1: an act or instance of colonizing: such as a: the establishing of a colony (see colony sense 1subjugation of a people or area especially as an extension of state power



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,060 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Downcow, you must realise how fundamentally you undermine your own credibility when you try to argue that what happened in NI was not colonialism.

    I, for one, have already come to the conclusion that 'if that poster is so blinkered as to not be willing to use the right term, why would I want to engage with them on anything?'



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