Hamas strike on Israel

Very few could imagine any people could be hated as much as the Nazis but by god the Israelis have made a great stab at it.

Israel's target in carrying out genocide is to purge Gaza of all Palestinians. They will then seek to redevelop Gaza for Jews. This was never about the hostages. Bibi doesn't give a poop about them. I do believe the Israeli public do hence the protests.

The question now is where does Israel stand. Economically they're haemorraghing money. Eilat is shut down and Haifa has been damaged. Hard to see who invests in Israel going forward given it's vulnerability security wise. Reputationally Israel in destroyed. Israelis are hated around the world. The impenetrable sense of security has been shattered by both the October 7th attack and Iran's response to Israeli aggression in the 12 days war. People are fleeing the country not believing in its future. When that happens any settler colonial project is doomed.

Who in Israel would represent a credible humane alternative to Bibi and his henchmen? Would they turn over Bibi, Smodrich and Ben Ghvir to the Hague? Will the time come when public sentiment turns against the U.S. backing Israel? Public sentiment in Israel is against a two state solution so what is the alternative? Are Israelis willing to disavow Zionism, an apartheid regime, dismantle the settlements, rebuild Gaza for the Palestinians and accept the 1948 borders?

Yes, Zionism is the desire for a Jewish homeland, except that desire gave no consideration for the people who were to be screwed over to meet that desire. I think if anyone anywhere wants to create a homeland where other people already live and whom regard as their own homeland, it would be only normal that those people have a say in such an endeavour. No?

Well ok... If that is the case yes, some of those demands are fairly similar to what I'm saying. I would have thought a Jihadi gang of terrorists would be looking for the complete removal of Jewish people from Israel or some such - so surprised at that.

But...as for how to get them surrendering.... Did they not already agree back in February to cede control of Gaza?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna194042

That was always my understanding - are you saying that is now off the table? If that is still the case, your point is moot, and all I said is still completely possible and is the best outcome for civilians in all sides.

If they cede, as agreed - UN soldiers should be able to enter Gaza and protect the civilians there / UN aid enter to feed/give urgent medical treatment / media can enter and document what is happening - all of which are extreme deterrents to the mass killing of the people there.

How does any of this "help Hamas"? How does any of it hurt Israel, outside of those that want to kill Gazans and take their land?

Your side of the argument is also under the premise that Hamas are genuinely still in control of Gaza, which is very implausible.

Given Israel's remarkable ability for intelligence gathering and covert infiltration, along with their extraordinary military hardware capabilities (which has been successful in decimating infinitely more powerful militaries and militias than Hamas, miles outside its own borders), you must be very gullible to believe that it cannot handle Hamas in two years in a territory they are in complete control of.

Systematically wiping out all means of life in the enclave is not a valid way of fighting an enemy - but it is convenient to have an enemy there to justify you doing this.

And don't give me that tunnel stuff - if Hamas are all in the tunnels, why has every house, school, church, mosque, library etc etc in Gaza been destroyed? It just proves this has been actions of genocide.

Can you tell me what Israel's demands are as a matter of interest?

Sorry, didn't see that, ill look back.

I don't agree with you. I think they should release the hostages immediately, I think they should be long released before now. I think the rest of the world couldn't allow Israel to annihilate Gazans if there was no excuse, just for the sake of it. I honestly think your question itself is badly phrased insofar as it's posing a purely hypothetical.

I honestly would hope if the hostages were released it would save thousands of lives even in the short term after it would happen.

Yes - the question is hypothetical, as would your answer be if you were willing to answer it.

The problem is - I believe the situation in that question is highly possible, and even likely.

I don't trust Israeli leadership for a second that they wouldn't try this, they are lunatics and war criminals, and have unleashed evil - not war - on Gazans. Unfortunately Israeli society seems to be too far gone off the deep end to stop them doing it.

My stance has absolutely nothing to do with Hamas, I hope they are hunted down and tried in the Hague for their crimes - as I have said since the start on this thread, my stance has not changed.

Anyway, I have given my reasons - you may not agree with them, but having seen what has been happening, and what is being said by those in power in Israel, I can't shake that uneasy feeling that this is where it's all going.

Strazdas, I agree that the hostages aren't a consideration in Israels plan. I feel though that they're their excuse, that and Hamas. They're the only cards Israel have for continuing their destruction and killing in Gaza.

Miniegg, I did answer your question. Even hypothetically I can't see how the world could allow it to happen if the hostages were free.

Honestly - did you think the world would let this happen?

I have no faith the world would intervene.

I'm not sure anyone even in Israel buys the idea that the state's current actions have anything to do with the hostages. It's obvious that the hardline section of the Israel public (a considerable swathe by all accounts) are fully on board with the potential ethnic cleansing of Gaza, in denial about the starvation tactics and probably couldn't give a toss about the hostages one way or the other.

Excellent : we could end up with a situation where the US and Germany are the only members of the G7 who will point blank refuse to recognise Palestine.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-jews-attacks-zionist-role-confirmed-operative-police-report

There is a long history of Zionists committing atrocities and denying responsibility completely or only accepting responsibility decades after the event.
The Patria bombing which killed 267 people was denied for years.
The Lavon Affair, denied until the perpetrators were eventually honoured by Israel.

Incidentally today is the anniversary of the murder of British soldiers by Irgun which has become today’s Likud party, currently committed a genocide in Gaza.