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Giant Bonfires up North 🔥 …. What’s the deal ?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    oh absolutely, I would condemn any racism on them. I was writing a post not an essay.
    So let me be clear. The boat on top of the bonfire was disgraceful and should not have happened.

    Out of the other thousands of bonfires, a few had Irish flags on top of them - fewer every year. I would certainly prefer that did not happen., but I completely understand the reason it is happening, and I wouldn’t be comfortable using the word condemnation. I would prefer education, about the many good Irish people who love that flag and move peoples thoughts away from those who used it to celebrate sectarian killers. I think the move is clearly that direction which is healthy.
    I think ‘oh ah up the ra’ chants in social areas is inappropriate and therefore also think the burning of the Irish flag is inappropriate.
    I would say the 11th night is a much more single identity event than the 12th, and it’s also mainly young people who have been drinking during the evening - so don’t expect angels



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    well if anything demonstrates how you’re struggling to find a bad news story, that’s it.
    Posted under a BBC headline - when in fact the were simply doing a review of the most nationalist newspaper in Northern Ireland. Shock horror the Irish news is running a story about bonfires from a report that nobody has seen, about unnamed bonfires and quoting ‘officials’ that nobody knows, and an article that is seven years old, dear knows what age secret report is
    try a little harder Francie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    The community don't want it- but we are down to the last one- the rest were stopped-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    well done. That’s excellent work.
    what sort of stuff does your community enjoy as festivals and celebration?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    oh absolutely, I would condemn any racism on them. I was writing a post not an essay.

    But the thing is you didn't condemn it in either of long posts. You didn't even raise it which I felt was strange.

    So let me be clear. The boat on top of the bonfire was disgraceful and should not have happened.

    …and again, you're not mentioning the anti-Irish flags and other bigoted symbolism

    Out of the other thousands of bonfires, a few had Irish flags on top of them - fewer every year.

    Cool. I'd love to look at those statistics if you could share them please.

    I wouldn’t be comfortable using the word condemnation. I would prefer education, about the many good Irish people who love that flag and move peoples thoughts away from those who used it to celebrate sectarian killers. I think the move is clearly that direction which is healthy.

    So you won't condemn the bigotry and sectarianism and instead offer some mealy mouth nonsense.
    The deliberate assumption that the tricolour represents sectarianism because some terrorists is a deliberate choice. I look at the Union flag but don't see the same sectarianism. It is the same reason why one side is clearly refusing to see the other as equals - a refusal to move on.


    I think ‘oh ah up the ra’ chants in social areas is inappropriate and therefore also think the burning of the Irish flag is inappropriate.

    I never mentioned chants (and am opposed to it although I do understand that many young people haven't a clue and shout it out without knowing what it means).
    Your condemnation of the burning of the flag tool a long time to get out there despite it seeming conditional.

    I would say the 11th night is a much more single identity event than the 12th, and it’s also mainly young people who have been drinking during the evening - so don’t expect angels

    The "when" is not the issue - it is the manner on which these triumphalist events are carried out. You may not see it but it there in plain sight if you choose to look.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    The west Belfast festival is on at the moment- one of the biggest community events in the world-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Poor attempt at handwaving it away. As you well know, there is plenty more out there confirming what the UoU research showed.

    These bonfires, constructed of rings of pallets surrounding rubbish under the watch of local Loyalist groups, can reach over thirty meters in height and are frequently adorned with sectarian rhetoric and imagery.

    This can include the Irish tri-color flag, signs reading “KAI” or “KAT,” the campaign posters of nationalist politicians, or effigies of individuals from the Catholic-Nationalist-Republican (CNR) community.Footnote2 

    Challenges to these structures before they are burnt see violent threats made against those who interfere. Parties attempting to remove structures often need police protection and obscure their identities as they work.

    Attempts to protect people and property from burning bonfires see neutral actors attacked.

    However, these are new developments since the Troubles began to wane; during and before the conflict, bonfires were smaller, more local, and largely passed without incident. Many are even anecdotally remembered as being cross-community. As the Troubles gave way to ceasefire, bonfires became a way of demonstrating explicitly sectarian ideas and sympathies.

    Full article: Vanity of the Bonfires? Eleventh Night Bonfires and Loyalist Influence After Negotiated Settlement in Northern Ireland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    …. and I still have not condemned the burning of flags. I said I think it’s inappropriate and I would prefer it did not happen, but there are deep emotional reasons why the flag is burnt.
    I’m not sure I completely understand your comment on triumphalism - do you mean a bit like the of the GAA at the final?
    I would describe the 11th night as a party/celebration but definitely with overtones of defiance against any attempt to unite Island



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    yes absolutely, but my question was more around activity/fiesta/celebration. The Belfast festival is very broad. What do you guys enjoy doing for an filled adrenalinenight out to celebrate your culture?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    …. and I still have not condemned the burning of flags. I said I think it’s inappropriate and I would prefer it did not happen, but there are deep emotional reasons why the flag is burnt.

    So you're remaining tolerant of sectarianism because you see why it might happen, despite it being a legacy issue (so to speak)?
    What other forms of sectarianism will you not condemn and would that sectarianism be permitted by both sides?

    I’m not sure I completely understand your comment on triumphalism - do you mean a bit like the of the GAA at the final?

    What exactly was sectarian about the GAA final (are you referring to the recent football final)?
    The GAA may have its issues as an organisation but how it conducts its events is not in any way comparable to how the Orange Order and loyalism conduct theirs - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    I would describe the 11th night as a party/celebration but definitely with overtones of defiance against any attempt to unite Island

    I would describe it as a celebration that highlights differences and a perceived sense of superiority - am I wrong?
    The Orange marches and the festivities that are aligned with it are directly linked with sectarianism and bigotry - this is why the flag burning and all other bigoted symbolism are acceptable on the bonfires. This is why you cannot even condemn such acts.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What a ridiculous question based on a narrow point of view.

    Culture is a broad thing by it's very essence. Everyone will get a different buzz from the many different ways of culturally expressing yourself.
    Republican/Nationalist leaders have long ago decided that the antiquated bonfire culture explicitly designed for the expression of triumphalist and sectarian sympathies is not a culture they want to advance or encourage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    what a load of nonsense. I read the first piece of that report and it has a crazy view of bonfires:

    “bonfires, lit on July 11 each year, remain little-understood as they have adapted to this post-ceasefire climate and been claimed by violent actors seeking to reaffirm local control and build support. These bonfires, constructed of rings of pallets surrounding rubbish under the watch of local Loyalist groups, can reach over thirty meters in height and are frequently adorned with sectarian rhetoric and imagery. This can include the Irish tri-color flag, signs reading “KAI” or “KAT,” the campaign posters of nationalist politicians, or effigies of individuals from the Catholic-Nationalist-Republican (CNR) community”

    I was at two bonfires this year. Kilkeel was huge with many thousands of people and absolutely zero paramilitary involvement, nothing burnt on the bonfire, etc etc. The description above could not possibly be further from reality.

    Portadown was a bit more of an adrenaline blast. This time the crowd were much more in the 14-25 age range, and flags were burnt on the bonfire. I would not be surprised if paramilitaries were involved in the organisation, they are part of the community and therefore it would seem surprising if they were not



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    just to be clear again, I am not prepared to condemn a community who lost a lot of people to sectarian organisation, who used that flag as their standard, if they decide to put it on their bonfire.
    i’ve told you before, I think it is inappropriate and I would prefer it did not happen, but I will not condemn that community who sees it as a symbol of their suffering



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    what a load of nonsense. 

    Course it is, handwave away and handwave away but nothing will go away.

    Imagine if a republican/nationalist said 'paramilitaries are part of the community, why wouldn't they be involved'.

    The lack of self awareness and complete and utter shameless exceptionalism is bizarre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I’m curious what it is Irish people do for a bit of an adrenaline fiesta? Or maybe you don’t have such a thing and that’s okay as well.
    I



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Repudiates peer reviewed, annotated academic research and security force and media assessment and asks us to believe research conducted by himself. 😁😁😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Waterslides, Tayto park, various sporting events, rally driving? Endless things.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    just to be clear again, I am not prepared to condemn a community who lost a lot of people to sectarian organisation, who used that flag as their standard, if they decide to put it on their bonfire.

    So just to be sure I understand you: you are not going to condemn the nationalist community who lost a lot of people to sectarian organisation and who used the Union flag as their standard?

    As loyalist terrorists (often assisted by the British armed forces) were happy to use the Union flag - what you're saying is that it would be ok with you for nationalists to burn it? (I certainly don't accept that behaviour!)
    Do you not see where that pettyness goes? Do you not see that despite your claims of tolerance, this is just defending clear and open bigotry?

    i’ve told you before, I think it is inappropriate and I would prefer it did not happen, but I will not condemn that community who sees it as a symbol of their suffering

    Both communities suffered. You're quick to come here and complain about republican acts yet are happy to see loyalists carry out their acts of intolerance (and worse) and offer pathetic mealy mouthed defences.
    How can Northern Ireland move on if one or other community will not let itself move on?

    We engage in activities that are not based around hatred, intolerance, bigotry and racism. Those same activities are present right across the island but you have obviously chosen to remain unaware of them (given the daft question).

    I would also point out that you too, as a person from the island of Ireland, are Irish - ask any person from England if you're in any doubt about that!

    I'm also aware that you ninja deleted a paragraph about taking "25 international people representing every continent to the two fires". You also mentioned that none of them described it as being "hateful, bigoted, sectarian, etc." - did you give them a impartial history of Ireland and how the troubles in NI took hold? I'd say not! 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    yes, I try to be consistent. If a community that has suffered at the hands of loyalist or British forces see the union flag as a standard that was carried out under, then I certainly would not condemn that community if a union flag was put on top of a fire. again I would prefer it did not happen and I feel it’s inappropriate.
    I deleted part of my last post because I thought it was getting a little bit too personal without consent - but I could easily have left it.

    I really thought you were above that statement about my nationality - I am surprised.
    Surely, you’re not suggesting that English people are going to decide what nationality each of us on these islands are?

    I really don’t want to go down this route of condemning peoples nationality. I am British and Northern Irish, and have my passport to prove it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    check out the carbon footprint for your car rallies - but sure that’s ok, they are wealthy middle class



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Again - pointing over there in order to excuse your own toxic behaviour is not the win you think it is. Whether it is car rallies in Ireland or activity in Dubai.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am simply challenging inconsistencies based on sectarianism



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The toxic environmental objections to bonfires of wood and rubbish is entirely different and supplementary to objections to bonfires that are sectarian.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    Firstly why do you need to have an "adrenaline fiesta"?

    Secondly if you do need it why do you need to burn hundreds of pallets? Why not just have a firework display or concerts or both like most modern societies do?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Does British AND ( Northern ) Ireland on the British passport not mean that the British dont really see U has British-?- and that U are happy enough with that-



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    yes, I try to be consistent. If a community that has suffered at the hands of loyalist or British forces see the union flag as a standard that was carried out under, then I certainly would not condemn that community if a union flag was put on top of a fire. again I would prefer it did not happen and I feel it’s inappropriate.

    So to be clear, you have no problem with celebrations that are clearly triumphalistic and which openly celebrate intolerance, hatred and bigotry against your neighbours regardless of the community celebrating or the community feeling intimidated? We'll remember that.

    I really thought you were above that statement about my nationality - I am surprised.
    Surely, you’re not suggesting that English people are going to decide what nationality each of us on these islands are?

    I really don’t want to go down this route of condemning peoples nationality. I am British and Northern Irish, and have my passport to prove it.

    You deliberately asked a stupid question so don't be surprised when your question generates a reaction that you don't like - although, I did not condemn your nationality,
    However, am I wrong in what I said? I'm well aware that the GFA allows you to declare yourself as Irish, British or both (despite what the British civil service assert!) but am I wrong in how you and your identity are perceived by those you wish to align to?

    The strange thing is that on the whole, the nationalist community are doing what they can to reach out the hand of peace (and I say that as someone who will probably never vote for Sinn Fein). it is generally the unionist hand that is pulling away from what I as an impartial observer sees it. Based on your posts here, you still insist on seeing yourself as a victim but refuse to see people from the nationalist community who have gone through the same traumas in the same manner. The likes of this nonsense below is a good example of where you think because your community is determined at all costs to have their fun, and you claim that the republican community despise you (whihc is a claim that I don't believe would stand up to any scrutiny)? However, (to play your game) if they despise you, it is more likely down to your absolute intolerance and your complete obliviousness about that intolerance rather than your religion or political allegiances - but alas, you think you can see the reality but clearly you cannot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think you should take another wee look at the passport. You’re talking nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Your passport says Britain AND Northern Ireland-

    Why are U a AND on the brit passport-

    All 32 Irish counties are represented on a 32 Irish passport- there is no AND on a Irish passport for the 6 counties-



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,362 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think it's fair to say that the more insecure unionism becomes the bigger these pyres are going to get.



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