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Lions tour to Australia

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Lions with a 100% line out at the weekend. Impressive stuff.

    Interestingly Oz also were perfect in that facet. Rare you see both teams not lose a line out. There was plenty of competition for it too.

    From a broader POV though what an absolute joy it was to see a game of that quality play out.

    Some of my bugbears from the first test appeared to be well ironed about. Specifically shape and structure in attack. Lions kept their pod structure much better and resourced the rucks a lot more effectively.

    This test was much more a tale of defending and some fellas can hold their heads very high (not too high though or Jac Morgan will shoulder it)

    179/219 tackles as a team is a large number to make. 82% success rate is lower than Farrell would have liked I'm sure. There were some poor misses but overall it was a strong defensive showing especially in the second half.

    The entire starting pack hit double digits which is impressive. Normally you see at least one outlier. Porter with an industrious 16 tackles. Excellent workrate from him as ever. Conan steals the show here with an excellent 24. World Class numbers yet again.

    The defensive integrity was sound. Oz are adopting a classic Schmidt tactic of forcing the same lads to make a few hits in a row off 9. Really targeting the same players in the same plays and hope they blink first. It's risky as it's energy sapping for the attack also. Given how early Valentini and Skelton came off it's clear the tactic didn't work. You'll always get metres from this tactic. But you'll exhaust the lads too. Lions dealt with it well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    A word for Tadgh Beirne too. It's a running joke at times just how utterly exhausted he looks all the time yet still keeps putting in performances. I don't know what the Lions have done to him the last 2 weeks but he doesn't even look as tired anymore haha.

    But just prior to Keenans try as the Lions worked up the pitch he had 3 absolutely sublime carries getting lovely front foot ball.

    He rechecked his line to get a ball from Russell after Stuarts ground ball. Held his feet and presented clean quick ball.

    Keeps his width and gets some brilliant metres into the Oz 22. Russell picks him out brilliantly to isolate their winger/ scrumhalf for easy metres.

    2 phases later runs a lovely wide line off 9, spins away from the tackler having to commit the jacklar to a tackle assist so Lions get front foot ball again to score 1 phase later

    The final play was 13 phases. 3 of those phases were serious carries from Beirne. World Class to be doing that in the 79th minute.

    Russell also deserves a lot of praise for this final play. He was like a conductor out there. Chose the correct option every single time until his final carry when he got snagged. But it was a joy to watch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    On the Morgan head contact.

    In Soccer there is a seldom enforced rule that comes at the referees discretion regarding low headers.

    If a ref feels a player has put their head in an unsafe position they can award a free kick against that player.

    It obviously wouldn't be as applicable in rugby.

    But there's merit to putting some semblance of responsibility on the jackaler also. If your head is below knee height, the risk of you getting hit in the head is increased by a significant amount.

    We speak a lot about all the responsibility being on the person who initiates contact. I would argue that some responsibility needs to be placed on the other party.

    Final thought. I love the jackal and the elements it brings to rugby. But it's fast becoming a facet that can no longer be refereed.

    There's an argument now to ban it outright. The ball can only be turned over by counter rucking where players enter the ruck with their heads above their hips as it is written in the laws of the ruck



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Law 15.3 is clear on this point. https://passport.world.rugby/laws-of-the-game/laws-by-number/15-ruck/

    Whether Refs always or never penalise it does not remove it as an offence. But it seems to have gone the way of a few Laws. The most obvious one of the 'throw in at the scrum' is also never penalised.

    19.15 When both sides are square, stable and stationary, the scrum-half throws in the ball:

    f. Straight. The scrum-half may align their shoulder on the middle line of the scrum, thereby standing a shoulder-width closer to their side of the scrum. Sanction:Free-kick.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Beirne is an incredible player - I think he is one of the most intuitive and clever players I've ever watched. His nose for where the key breakdowns will be - especially in the pivotal moments of big matches - is just amazing.

    I think he's on track for a Man of the Series title (if they still award this).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,889 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Beirne has been outstanding for sure. His only rival for player of the series IMO is Sheehan, possibly JGP.

    So we've got a Lions series win and we've solved the dilemma over who replaces POM for Ireland. Score!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Agreed. Ruck turnovers are countered by players going in even lower than the 'jackler' & off their feet. Jacklers not being rewarded because they didn't 'lift' the ball. Ball carriers being prevented from placing the ball by jacklers as in Law 14.7(a). Jacklers sustaining head & lower limb injuries.

    It's a mess & it's time to move away from it.

    Anyways, Laws thread more appropriate



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Isn't the entire point of the jackal that the jackaling player is first man there, and is there before the ruck is formed? I didn't think that the ruck formed until another player from the other side joins over the ball on their feet. Therefore, the rule about shoulders higher than hips wouldn't apply, as there is no ruck (yet).



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,701 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    100%

    the "shoulders above hips" thing doesnt exist for the jackler as there is no ruck at that point.

    everyone knows that to win the ruck you need two things: win the race to the ball and win the height battle.

    despite some stills trying to argue otherwise, in the context of the game both players arrived together. Morgan won the height battle in spite of the best efforts of Tizzano. Piardi reffed it as he reffed the previous 80 minutes, which is exactly what we want in the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,421 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The NFL changed the rules a few seasons back to make it illegal for runners to lead with their helmet, at the same time they made helmet to helmet hits by defenders illegal. No idea how WR could implement something similar, but it's an unavoidable reality that the current game creates multiple situations where players put their heads in unsafe positions to compete.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Jgp without question.

    Curry and lowe contenders



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    And an excellent ref, with an excellent team behind him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Correct. The ruck is not formed until a 2nd player from either side enters the tackle zone. But, as the Law requires that any player taking part in the ruck must not have their head lower than their hips and the jackler is now part of the ruck then the jackler must either raise their head / lower their hips or release the ball.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,889 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Lowe?

    I wouldn't be surprised if he loses out on the third test and definitely wouldn't have had in the running for any awards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, it was such a strange take i actually think he possibly meant Lowe to fill in at blindside for Ireland going forward.

    It seems about as likely as him being Player of the Series here.

    I don't think he's been as bad as some of the ratings etc have made out, and he's obviously had the typical huge moments he's capable of, but equally will feel he definitely hasn't been at his best either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I dunno. He hasn't been as freeman. Hansen will take the right wing spot, if fit.

    Lowe has done his job very well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Leave me alone and let me cook my piri-piri chicken!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Yup.

    Regardless, I don't think Morgan made any effort to stay on his feet. He could have been pinged for going in with head below hips, the point of contact, or going straight down to his hand and knee.

    That said, I'm not surprised with a call either way. Rucks are always a mess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭bingobango12


    Spot on here.

    Although he keeps putting in big performances he won't be able to keep doing it again and again. Given Munsters fixtures at the start of the season, I really hope he is given a break up to the November internationals after this tour and he isn't seen in a Munster jersey until their European fixture in December.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    To a degree he already isn't able to keep doing it again and again. Those two Lions performances were far and away his best all season and he was quite poor on the tour prior to them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭Nermal


    So to counter the jackal (pretty much every jackal will have head lower than hips) don't bother trying to clear out, just bind. Keep your weight on the defender so he can't raise his head. You've created a ruck and he's now illegal. Perhaps this is the only clarification that's needed?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    90% of refs will call that against the player for holding on. There is no easy fix.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If the jackal actually had hands on the ball his only obligation is to left it. If the tackled player prevents that, it's a penalty. There's no ruck in this situation as the players aren't bound over the ball (which should have been placed on the ground). The shoulders above hips thing only comes into effect when the two players are bound on each other, ball on the ground.

    This law is so misunderstood that I think they should just scrap jackalling as it's at once nearly impossible to ref in real time and impossible to explain what's actually happening to spectators who haven't a clear understanding of the breakdown.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,421 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The majority of issues in the game stem from the ruck, jackaling. Everyone loves a good turn over, but it is a blight



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    completely disagree regarding russell to be honest, lions got lucky with a well taken try but russell should have kicked a drop goal well before that. there were multiple opportunities to go for it before they scored the try but FR went missing, did the same in the euro final in 2020 and racing ended up losing, did it for glasgow against munster in europe in 2017



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,202 ✭✭✭✭phog


    He was as sharp as razor blade to notice the space when Australia failed to get back into their own 22 for the restart after their score.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I agree and kinda disagree.

    I was shouting at the tv for the dg. Russell does not lack confidence and definitely the right choice at #1 outhalf.

    But would o'gara, sexton, Wilkinson have taken the chance?

    Could see a penalty with offside anyways.

    Good try though



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    That was an exceptional bit of play. Freeman recognised it too.

    He had the Lions playing in the wrong part of the pitch a lot of the first half, but well everyone was ropey in that period. I'm less sure on the DG, they were putting Aus under serious pressure and I think continue to hammer the line and causing Aus to continue to concede penalties was a higher percentage play than a DG.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Just one case of butter fingers…

    Well done though.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    absolutely and to be fair he had an okay game overall, but the post was referring to the final play and thats what i was disagreeing with - for me, he went missing and the lions were lucky to score a try (albeit well taken by HK) and its something he has precedent with

    yep this is pretty much what i mean, all of those players would have had taken the chance (wilkinson would have probably had about 20 attempts in the game already to be fair). O Gara was calling for it in the commentary too. As much as Russell is a talented player overall, i think he lacks the game management skill in the 'championship minutes' that someone like dan carter or the players mentioned had



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