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US/EU trade talks go down to the wire

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,212 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Everyone would have thought.

    In no reality was there ever a deal not being done. In fact the US needed it far more than the EU.

    We just all had to put up with months of Trump's performative bullshit, for some reason.

    Jesus Christ, but people indulge that bloviating imbecile FAR too much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,710 ✭✭✭dubrov


    The final deal would suggest the EU needed it more than the US



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Most people live in the real world. Where Donnie is POTUS. So like him or not hes pretty important.

    All The headline grabbing items would look like big positives for America. So claiming they needed a deal more doesnt really tie.

    Itll be interesting to see actual details, given Donnie is Brexit on wheels, lets see if these headline grabbers re pharma/chips/investment etc are all actually heavily weighted in favour of US.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The euro rose against the dollar when the deal was announced, which could suggest:

    • that the markets reckoned Europe would be more harmed by a trade war than the US would; or
    • that the markets reckoned Europe got more out of the deal than the US did.

    But, as Podge says, there's no final deal yet. All we have a is joint readout - a press statement read out to journalists, but not officially published, so you can't read the definitive text of what is most likely a only one-page document anyway.

    This is fairly typical of Trump's "trade deals". SFAIK none of them have actually been documented and published. Trump likes this format, because it enables him to climb down from his threats to impose what would be ruinous tariffs while claiming a great victory, and his claim can't really be analysed or debunked, because there is no way of knowing how much truth it contains.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Well the 15% seems fairly certain. But there was always going to be a rate. So its better than 30% which is technically a win for us.

    But are pharma/chips included or not? If not then thats a loss for us imo.

    Is there any US investments into EU ala the reported Arms/Energy and 600 Billion investment from EU? If not then thats a loss for us imo.

    As you say the devil will be in further detail. But currently its looking very much like the US have gotten a huge amount from EU.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,442 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Bottom line is that the EU signed up to a 15% imposed baseline tariff. The US has been imposed with 0%. It's pretty obvious who needed a deal. On top of that there are the US energy, defence and investment conditions also imposed on the EU. What such conditions have been imposed on the US? Absolutely nothing.

    It's an inherently bad deal for the EU and is a great deal for the US.

    IBEC already out this morning saying the EU "capitulated", the 15% will have a serious impact and concerned about the competitive advantage the UK and NI now have.

    German industry representatives out now saying it's a very bad deal.

    These voices will only get louder in the coming days as the consequences of what has been accepted sink in.

    After the US, the biggest winner is Trump himself. His preculiar tactics have worked with countries around the world.

    Look at Japan last week. Also accepted 15% while the US pays nothing and also agreed to massive expenditure in the US.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Is there any US investments into EU ala the reported Arms/Energy and 600 Billion investment from EU? If not then thats a loss for us imo.

    Without details it is a bit meaningless. The EU can't direct FDI into the US, and quite a lot of it happens anyway. As does huge amounts of the opposite.

    A lot of this is just stating things that were going to happen anyway/are relatively unenforceable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    My god, there is no deal… how is this so hard to understand?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,442 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Our baseline tariff goes to 15% on August 1st. That's the deal. The tariff the other way will be 0%.

    Believe me, our exporters will understand the deal.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 275 ✭✭Perseverance The Second


    Worth remembering that Project 2025 explicitly states to give the UK a preferential deal as a means of keeping them out of the EU. This deal reflects part of this thinking given the EU appear to have been bent over backwards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's not a great deal for the US — US consumers will have to pay more for imports that are subject to tariffs. This will fuel inflation in the US.

    Trying to frame this as a good deal or a bad deal, as better or worse than expected/feared, needs to be done in the light of the overarching context — all possible outcomes here were bad for the EU, as well as bad for the US (though the EU doesn't care so much about that, obviously).

    An outcome in which no tariffs were imposed on either side, or in which agreed tariffs imposed by one side were matched by agreed tariffs imposed by the other side, was not attainable. Given that, I don't think it makes sense to the criticise the EU for not attaining it.

    Essentially, the choice facing the EU was:

    • Make a deal in which the EU accepts a certain level of tariffs imposed by the US, and focus on bargaining down that level of tariffs as much as possible
    • Don't make a deal, suffer a much higher leve of tariffs imposed by the US, retaliate by imposing tariffs on US exports to the EU.

    On the face of it, the latter choice is worse for the EU — EU exports to the US suffer more than they would with a deal, plus EU imports from the US cost EU consumers more, so it's a double whammy. The only reason for going down this course is that it would also be very painful for the US, and this might give rise to a hope that the US would eventually be brought to a point where it would be willing to make a more favourable deal than the one they are currently prepared to make. But that's a gamble, obviously — you don't know how well it will work, in terms of improving the terms the US is prepared to agree, and you don't know how long it will take to acheive whatever it is going to acheive. There is a view that the EU should have chosen the trade war route, despite the risks and the uncertainties, but politically speaking it's a route that you can only take if you have strong domestic support for it, which I think wasn't there.

    So the EU has chosen to make a deal, as have the UK, China, Japan and a number of other countries. The details vary, but all these countries were facing basically the same dilemma, and all have chosen to make a deal in which they accept signficant asymmetric tariffs imposed on them by the US, and give some (distinctly vague) commitments in relation to investment, etc. South Korea is expected to make a similar deal very shortly.

    Only Canada looks like it is going down the other route. Trump has already imposed 25% tariffs, and is threatening 35% tariffs unless there is a trade deal in place by 1 August, which as of right now seems unlikely to happen. I don't think it's a coincidence that, alone among the major trading nations, it's Canada that has chosen the high-stakes gamble. Their situation is not on all fours with that of the EU, Japan, etc. Trump is directly threatening Canada's sovereignty and independence, so there's more at stake for the Canadians than simply minimising economic harm. They have a stronger motivation to draw a line in the sand and refuse to move from it, even if the economic consequences are severe.

    Overall this state of affairs still looks to me to be bad for the US. Other countries suffer restrictions on their trade with the US, but very few countries do the majority of their trade with the US. The US, however, suffers restrictions on its trade with most of the world — the vast majority of its trade is affected. If the situation persists, the likely outcome is the development of a "doughnut pattern" in world trade, with the US playing the part of the hole. Other countries will trade more with one another and less with the US, while the US will trade less with pretty well everybody. The big winners in this are the Chinese, who are best positioned to fill the space created by the decline in the US's global economic and financial significance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,442 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This is another thing that is hard to fathom. Because the EU got no reciprocal conditions at all and only conceded there is zero incentive now for the Democrats/Republicans to undo any of this in the future as the Wall Street editor of the Economist astutely points out. Aside I never thought the Democrats had any intention of undoing the tariffs anyway as ideologically and naturally they should favour them more than Republicans. The EU has locked permanency in to it's framework agreement. Although it's not the only one. UK and Japan as well.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    And 15 is less than the 30 it was due to go to.

    This is all around just bad for the US. It will do nothing whatsoever to relocate industry cause it is still more expensive to produce in the US and they are tariffing all the components. In fact, it is now cheaper to make e.g. cars in Germany and export to the US then build them there as the tariffs on steel etc are higher. This continues to just be a very incompetent man making things more expensive for US citizens. Does it impact the EU? Sure, of course it does. But all they can do is best coddle the ego of the madman til he is gone.

    This framework provides some degree of stability, which is important for investment. And absolutely no one is going to relocate to the UK for a potential couple years of 5% tariff savings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/eu-us-differ-pharma-tariffs-203525503.html?guccounter=1

    After he met with von der Leyen Sunday, Trump said that the deal would not include pharmaceuticals, a contentious point in the negotiations, seeming to imply they would be subject to a higher tariff.

    In a separate news conference, von der Leyen said, “The EU agreed we have 15% for pharmaceuticals.” But she added, “Whatever decisions later – by the president of the US – that’s on a different sheet of paper.”

    Senior US officials later said that the two sides agreed on a 15% tariff level for the EU’s pharmaceutical exports. A separate Section 232 probe on pharmaceuticals is still coming over the next three weeks, but the EU tariff level will remain at 15%, the officials added.

    If pharma is set at 15%, that would be a huge win for Ireland. We'd have the max 50% to negotiate down from if we weren't in the EU, because out trade balance is so big.

    Getting 15% means those companies will just stay here since if they move production to the US, they would have to pay more than 15% to import a lot of stuff.

    But it doesn't seem fully clear if pharma is definitely included. It would actually be a big step down from Trump because he was talking about 200% and stuff, and getting that pharma back to the US was a massive thing for him.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,442 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    They've the findings of a big investigation in a few weeks. You can bet your bottom dollar Ireland will be mentioned a lot. If Trump and Lutnik are serious on pharma one way or another they have to deal with Ireland as a major cog in the problem from their perspective.

    It could be the pharma tariffs are capped but I'd still be very surprised if this was the end of the matter. I don't think it will be.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Before you post further negativity about how the EU lost out on the trade deal, can you please post a link to the deal so we all can read it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,876 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    As part of the trade deal the EU will buy $750 billion worth of energy from the United States, as well as make $600 billion in additional investments

    Not sure what these additional investments are but the energy is likely to be oil and LNG which flies in the face of the EUs climate change limitation policies.

    Overall this is a better deal for the US because of the additional investments and buying of oil but I expected that as UVDL has consistently proven to be a poor negotiator

    Apparently certain products, Keoghs Crisps being the first example I have heard of, will have lower tariffs as a result of this deal



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,269 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    It suggests that the EU needed it more than Trump. They still have to sell goods into the US market. But 15% is better than what was on the table previously.

    However, the US consumer absolutely does not need (or want) to be paying more for the goods that they buy and that's who is going to be affected the most by this.

    Trump, himself, doesn't give a toss about any of that though.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Not sure what these additional investments are but the energy is likely to be oil and LNG which flies in the face of the EUs climate change limitation policies.

    No it doesn't, as they're simply replacing fossil fuels from Russia.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,876 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    When was the last time we bought fossil fuels from Russia?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    I think a non reciprocal tarrif is the most glaring. Fair enough we could argue that the ultimate barer is the US customer but it will have impacts on exporters in the EU.

    Im not sure why the the EU accepted this.

    Reasons i can think of are:

    1: The EU have been ripping the US off and are happy for this as it balances books

    2: They think it would be more detrimental to the EU economy to apply reciprocal tarrifs

    3: They're weak and got bullied by the US



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    EU in general? Today. The plan is to phase it out in 2027 I think.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If you mean any constituent country of the EU then today. There is still significant flows of gas into Europe (albeit mostly to Hungary and I think Serbia). We have already massively increased the imports of LNG from the US to replace this though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/eus-pledge-250-billion-us-energy-imports-is-delusional-2025-07-28/

    Interesting look at how impossible the numbers are to buy that much energy from the US. The number is greater than all US energy exports. And if the EU managed to actually import that much, it would be 85% of its energy spending.

    It's just a big number to look good.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Because they don't want tariffs at all. The answer is pretty obviously 2 from your list. Most importantly, the EU is not removing any non-tariff trade barriers.

    The EU Commission is inherently weaker in this fight than the proto-dictator in the US. But that is actually predominantly a good thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 309 ✭✭Qaanaaq


    I think it is a rubbish deal which favours the US. on one hand you can feel annoyed that the EU didn't stand up more considering their status in terms size.

    But I think the EU probably took the path that would cause least disruption/damage and massive job losses. China on the other hand is less likely to be concerned with creating hardship for its people.

    But it's still a shame to see the EU not prepared to fight this bully



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,876 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    A few things we should remember about the tariffs

    There were already tariffs on EU-US trade, so 15% might sound like a lot but it's actually only about a 10% increase on what was already there

    Let's say the price of Kerrygold and Jameson rise by 10% in American supermarkets as a result of this. You can comfortably make a bet that the American made butter and whiskey will rise in price by a similar amount as the capitalists cash in! I was reading a few days ago about post-WW2 tariffs that the US put on German made washing machines which raised the price of US made washing machines for consumers. Bizarrely, dryers went up in price as well as a result of the tariffs

    Non-reciprocal tariffs means prices for us won't be higher so I'm all for that. The exporters can always look at the internal EU market if they want to sell their products cheaper.

    UVDL has proven herself to be a weak negotiator, I think we all remember the vaccine contracts she f****d up on. This is more of her inabilities on show

    Yes, the EU in general is what I was referring to, I'm aware that we, here in Ireland buy very little Russian energy.

    I had assumed Russia stopped supplying the EU after they invaded Ukraine but what do they say about assumptions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Personally i think its mistake. Theres far too many unknowns with Trump.

    Theres also no way to fully play out all potential scenarios foreseem and unforeseen from the tarrif the EU have agreed to.

    4 years is long enough that theyll never be removed unless theres a glarring reason to do so from a new US president.

    I dont see how being the weaker party at the negotiating table is ever a good thing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,876 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The next US president could promise cheaper prices for the consumer through a better trade deal with the rest of the world. Then go about dropping tariffs



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