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US/EU trade talks go down to the wire

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Reciprocal tariffs would mean any US company trading with the EU would be incentivised to move there.

    Plus if you are moving your company from the EU why not move to the US and cut out all tariffs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The White House is saying the deal on the table is not sufficient so there will need to be a bit more give. We can't accept a general tariff over 10% and that's the EU's position. They really need to stick to that firmly. Hopefully a deal is done soon to at least remove some of the uncertainties.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Oh, well if the White House says it then obviously its unimpeachably true.

    Doing a deal won't even remove uncertainties. He's more than happy to rip up deals and agreements in a fit of pique.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    FT saying the EU is preparing to accept 15% minimum tariff to get a deal (paywalled)

    https://www.ft.com/content/460b7784-88d7-4324-9e4d-dc9692d15e72

    It's still horrendous damage to Ireland in particular but it could be worse. Unfortunately for us it would also put us on the wrong side of the tariffs on the UK at 10%, a competitive disadvantage that it looks increasingly likely now we'll have to live with.

    Overall I'm very disappointed if it is 15%. We are about to get a big reality check on government spending plans.

    It remains to be seen if there'll be any carve outs in terms of specific sectors that might benefit some sectors here.

    We also await Trump's sectoral tariffs. So much of our exports and tax take are tied up in pharma to the US.

    It's all damage limitation now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,543 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    It looks like the US has balked at the 30% retaliatory tariffs, still think it could go down to, or beyond the wire (and we'll have a performance by trump towards the end, barring whatever dumb thing he does next and what level of distraction is needed).

    More details on the potential deal here:

    EU See Progress Toward US Trade Deal With 15% Tariffs

    Could effectively be a 10% increase on current rates.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The single most important thing for Ireland is the sectoral tariffs. Is the Trump administration going to accept Pharma in the 15% deal WITHOUT hitting us again with sectoral tariffs on the same products? I would be amazed if they did but that would be a big win for Ireland. I highly doubt that is what will happen though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,217 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I think its time the EU stopped effing around, as if they are in a weaker position here. They aren't.

    Trump should be offered a 10% general rate as a fait accompli, and a trade off of 0%, or a continuation of the current 4.5% on a bunch of sectors important to each.

    And Kermit, you're wrong to be so skittish about Pharma. Those American HQ'd firms have a vital interest in maintaining access to the European market. After all, its 50% bigger than the US consumer market. No matter the tariffs, it will still be in their interest to maintain and even greatly expand their presence, and swing their activity away from supplying back to the US. Not only can they supply Europe from this position, but all other markets that the EU is making good deals with. Deals that aren't based on false narratives around tariffs.

    Trump wants to make the US an island. American companies will not see themselves stranded on it. Not if they want to continue to grow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The bulk of our tax take comes from firms parking IP here and exporting back to the US, not to Europe. That's just a fact. If you're happy to knock €15bn off state revenues pretty much overnight fair enough. Your opinion on the EU position here is also completely wrong. The EU has no choice but to accept the deal put on the table. Like all other countries they are the client when it comes to the US.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Even the Guardian in the UK can't hide the reality that their trade independence got them the better deal

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jul/23/eu-100bn-no-deal-plan-trump-tariffs-threat-us-imports

    The final decision remains in the hands of the US president, Donald Trump, but if agreed it would mean the EU gets a worse deal than the UK, which has agreed a 10% baseline tariff.

    I'm envious. We have given away our sovereignty in trade and we ultimately pay the price. Why are the Germans happy with 15%? Because their car industry get their tariff down from 27% now to 15%.

    Meanwhile we get screwed because it's a disaster for us and the Germans don't care. They've been sorted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Don't be silly. Trump is fixated on the balance of trade in goods. The UK got a not-terrible deal from Trump because the UK runs a trade deficit in goods with the US; (also because Trump badly needed at least one deal). Ireland runs a very substantial trade surplus in goods, and Trump doesn't need a deal with Ireland. The notion that Ireland would get a UK-mirror deal if it wasn't in the EU is a fairly stupid one; not being in the EU doesn't make Ireland into the UK, either in general or from a US perspective specifically.

    Other countries with a trade surplus in goods that have made deals with the US are subject to baseline tariff rates of 19% (the Phillipines), 19% (Indonesia), between 10% and 34% (China), 20%-40% (Vietnam); 15% (Japan).

    It seems very unlikely that Ireland, negotiating on its own, would secure a baseline tariff of less than 15%.

    PS: The "Germany is run by the car-makers" trope was pretty comprehensively demolished during the Brexit period. I woulnd't be attempting to resurrect it now unless I wanted to cosplay someone with short-term memory loss. Besides, auto exports represent only about 15% of Germany's exports to the US; the notion that they "don't care" about the other 85% is unconvincing.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,543 ✭✭✭✭astrofool




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,217 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    What do you mean you're envious?

    We wouldn't be in this economic position without having been in the EU for the last 50 years! Instead we'd be like the Icelandics, a tiny population on a small rock in the north Atlantic, being all precious about our Cod.

    The UK's deal is irrelevant to the EU, we operate in different universes by scale and by market diversity. It is also not really a deal at all yet, only the heads of one. They still have the most sticky sectors to agree.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I'll come back to the above responses but for now, assuming we are accepting 15% (like I said it's not horrific, more problematic), we need more.

    If there is to be a win this would be it

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2025/07/24/eu-pushing-to-cap-future-tariffs-on-pharma-in-us-deal/

    If they could cap pharma and semiconductors at that 15% in the deal (thereby shielding us from the coming tariff assault) that would be a really good result for us. I'm highly sceptical the Trump adminstration will agree given the ongoing investigations in to Pharma off-shoring and how bent they are on re-shoring but the government here would take certainty and that rate in a heartbeat given the mooted tariffs on those sectors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The problem Trump has is that relocating pharma production to the US will be difficult and expensive and will take time. And heavy tariffs on pharma imports will really piss off both a lot of voters, and a lot of politically powerful health insurers and healthcare providers. (It's notable that pharmaceuticals were expressly exempt from the tariffs announced by Trump on Stupid Tuesday; this is why. Instead, the Dept of Commerce announced an investigation into the whole question of pharma imports; this is not scheduled to complete until the end of the year.)

    The obvious strategy for Trump here is a sectoral pharma policy along these lines: heavy tariffs on pharma to apply from a stated time in the future, but tariff rebates at that time for the products of companies that produce at least X% of their global production in the US. That gives pharma producers a window of opportunity to relocate a large amount of their production from foreign-land to the US, and so not suffer tariffs. IIRC, Trump has already hinted at a policy of this kind.

    But there's two problems with that:

    First, that still means significant price rises for pharma products. There's a reason why all that pharma is produced outside the US in the first place, and relocating to the US will raise the cost of production. So this still pisses off voters and the healthcare industry; it just pisses them off a bit less. On the bright side, it's the next administration that will bear the brunt of this pissed-offedness.

    Which brings us to the second problem: given the nature of pharma production and the amount of capital invested in it, a reasonable time to allow a substantial relocation of that production is at least three years, and probably considerably longer. (AstraZenica has announced a $50 billion investment in US production facilities, but it will take until 2030 to roll it out; they, and any other producer investing in US production, will strongly urge that the timeframe for relocating production to avoid tariffs has to be realistic.) Any policy announced by Trump on tariff rates is not taken very seriously anyway; he changes tariff rates more often than he changes his underwear. But a policy announcement about tariff rates that are supposed to be applied under a different, and as yet unknown, President is meaningless.

    Where does this leave the EU? Probably urging a sectoral exemption for pharma from whatever US tariffs are applied under any EU/US trade deal or, as the post above suggests, a limitation or cap on pharma tariffs. They know there will be powerful domestic US interests pressing for the same thing, and they know the cost to Trump of conceding this is not great, given that he already implicitly recognised that he can't, realistically, impose heavy tariffs on pharma. And he has a justification for this; it would be premature to impose heavy tariffs on pharma while his own Dept of Commerce investigation is continuing.

    A special deal for pharma is not a shoe-in; to put it mildly, Trump does not always act in a rational manner. But it'll certainly be something the EU is targetting in negotiations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Deub


    I'm envious.

    Don’t be. UK government borrowing reached the second-highest level in June since records began in 1993, according to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

    We have given away our sovereignty in trade and we ultimately pay the price.

    Meanwhile we get screwed because it's a disaster for us and the Germans don't care. They've been sorted.

    How many times have you said that on Boards? You said it countless times during Brexit and yet it didn’t happen.
    You say it is not good for Ireland but what do you think Ireland would have achieved on its own? Do you really we could have done better? Personally, I don’t think so because a small family shop don’t get better prices from wholesalers than big supermarkets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The deal will be released soon, we'll have to wait and see but…

    Trump was just asked could he do lower than 15% - "no".

    Will Pharma be included? "No".

    Bottom line is the deal will be worse than the UK with a 5% premium (and they are having talks on Monday to further improve that deal) so we are at a competitive disadvantage with our neighbour and on top of that the stay of execution looks like it will continue for us on pharma and semiconductors.

    Let's see what the fine print says (will there be carve outs for some products?) but if that is how it is that's a poor outcome even though it could have been much worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,217 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    In no universe is a sick and sad UK at a competitive advantage over the EU.

    For starters their deal is only done in headline terms, they are still fecked over things like steel. The only reason Trump allowed them a lower rate than Japan or Europe, or Canada, Mexico, Korea etc, is that the UK is no threat to the US markets in any shape.

    The UK is a tiny fish in a very big pond these days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    As things stand the UK has a 25% tariff on steel imposed.

    The EU 50%.

    We await to see the fine print but if that remains then that's bad news for EU countries that have big interests in that sector.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭rock22


    If there is a deal, then it will be a deal the EU are happy about. They are a stronger and bigger economy than the US and they will not make a deal that is not in their interest. They have all the figures and know what can accepted or what needs to be rejected.

    Wait and see.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,556 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    And the deal is struck; who'd have thought…



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭rdser


    15% is going to cause issues for many no matter what way you look at it....and pharma still to be dealt with. Funny watching rte trying to spin this as a positive. Will be interesting to hear what Mehole and Simple Simon have to say.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Trade deals with Trump are meaningless anyway. It provides some temporary stability but it is the best you can get out of dealing with a madman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭rdser


    We'll see I suppose. Wouldn't be counting on him chickening out here tbvh but time will tell.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He might chicken out. He might introduce 30% tariffs again in a few months cause he gets bored.

    Obviously it is going to cause issues, but there is no good way out of dealing with a lunatic who is determined to undermine global trade from a position of relative power. Much like you can't make a reasonable deal with a toddler.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭greenfield21


    Von Der Leyen in press conference saying pharma and chips included in 15%. What Trump decides to do globally is different. I am not sure she knows what is going on. More confusion it is so with Trump saying opposite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    We need clarity. Without pharma inclusion Ireland will remain the most exposed country in Europe to sectoral tariffs. The nerves won't be lifted in govt buildings on the back of this. Also nothing on spirits.

    And accepting that 15% tariff is a very bitter pill that is going to cost jobs, harm investment and slow growth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭greenfield21


    The EU shouldnt accept 15%, only reason it seems to be a good deal is because it's not Trumps crazy initial figures and has been negotiated down. EU are so weak this is the best we can hope for and accept this? Probably not surprising to see how China can push the EU around anyway.

    Appears pharma will come later but is included in 15% according to VDL.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This makes no sense. Is she saying we've decided companies will have a 15% tariff on pharma that wasn't there before?

    Very confusing.

    Also, been eyeing the tariff differential with the UK throughout the thread



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,443 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This is what Bloomberg is saying.

    Untitled Image

    The Irish Times says the 15% is a cap on pharma tariffs.

    I don't get it. One side saying one thing and the other side saying another.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You can basically ignore everything before "Trump said"



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