Were the old Dublin trams better than the Luas?

dublincc2 · 19-02-2025 09:49PM #1

Was speaking to a man in the pub the other day whose grandfather was foreman of tram lines in Dublin and England. He told me that in his view the Luas was a joke. Not even a proper city network. Put together mish mash, made up as they went along. That is not entirely untrue, but he also said that there were better trams in Dublin 100 years ago and they tore them up. “Gobshites of govt past 100 years. Can’t do anything right.”

I agreed with his general sentiment especially when it comes to investing in transport infrastructure, the Metrolink is clear evidence of that. But it did get me thinking, partly from a nostalgic point of view but also a practical one, were the old DUTC trams a better system? Obviously looking at the map it was a much more expansive network, with trams going as far as Blessington. The entire city was covered. Having looked at old images it seems that buses were able to be driven alongside them, so you don’t have a situation like today in many parts of the city centre. A central terminus at the Pillar.

Obviously technology has moved on, but could that exact system with the same routes and lines have been revived instead of what we got with the Luas?

Strumms · 19-02-2025 10:13PM

there were apparently 23 lines in the old tram network. That’s better for a start.

2 now and still no metro, and won’t be for however many years…🤪 anyone’s guess, all we need is another pandemic, war, international crisis in whatever country, where our €€€€€€€€€ is shipped out or whatever and they’ll probably have to cancel it.

bk · 19-02-2025 10:45PM

What is impressive about the old tram network was how extensive it relatively was in the city center.

However no it wasn't better then the Luas and the Luas is certainly no joke!

The passenger capacity of the old double decker trams would be similar to our modern double decker buses, perhaps the biggest ones equivalent to the VT class. They had the same issues of our double decker buses, with slow dwell times, people going up and down the stairs, accessibility, etc.

Basically there are just a double decker bus that ran on electricity!

The advantage of Luas is it's massive capacity. Each Luas tram is equivalent to 4 or more double decker buses/trams. Much more accessible, much faster dwell times. And once the Luas gets onto the segregated sections of the Green line it can accelerate and get up to speeds that those old trams could only dream of.

I don't have evidence, but I suspect our two Luas lines carry more passengers per day then the entire old DUTC network put together. Each of our Luas lines carries more passengers per day then 3 of Amsterdams 5 Metro lines. Luas is a very high capacity, almost pre-metro type tram system.

Looking at the old DUTC map, it is notable that other then the coastal and Lucan line, most of the tram network didn't extend far from Dublin city center and is much more clustered around the city center area. Luas has the capacity and speed to go much further into the suburbs, which of course are much more extensive today.

Of course, having said all of that, it would have been great if we still had that old network. We could have gradually upgraded the lines to Luas type service one by one. Many European cities have a mix of both old tram lines and modernised Luas type lines. An existing right of way would make it much easier to upgrade.

Interestingly the Luas 2050 Vision looks to rebuild much of that old DUTC network, but extending much further into the suburbs then the old network.

What strikes me when I look at old pictures of the trams, it isn't the trams/buses, but how few cars there are and how many bikes there are! Looking at pictures of College Green and OCS, it is amazing how few cars there are. It shows if you can get the cars out of the way then the buses/trams can do their job.

bk · 19-02-2025 10:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123189660#Comment_123189660

Many of those 23 lines were overlapping lines. The DUTC network was 95km long, the Luas 42km. That is still over double of course, but perhaps not as much as saying 23 lines versus 2 might suggest.

L1011 · 19-02-2025 10:51PM

Like Amsterdam, if the old system had kept going, most of the lines would have closed along the way and completely new lines / rebuilds done instead.

Custom track gauge, open top double decker trams would be unique to Ireland and much more expensive than the off-the-shelf trams that Luas uses.

Bus can be driven alongside the Luas anywhere that we want them to be. The areas that they can't are deliberate.

the_amazing_raisin · 19-02-2025 11:00PM

I feel it's hard to compare the systems as they were designed to do different things

Back in the day the commutes were shorter and there were much fewer cars, so lots of shared roadspace with smaller ttams was easy

Now commutes are longer and the LUAS is often a stage within a longer journey. So you'll want bigger trams that can carry more people

That kind of forces you into mostly dedicated tramways because you don't want them getting bogged down in traffic or blocking up a junction

So in terms of speed or capacity the LUAS probably wins

The Green line is actually built along the route of an old light rail system which is why it can support bigger trams

However there's no doubt that removing the old tram network was a mistake. It wasn't an Irish thing, I believe many cities in the UK did it too favouring the flexibility of buses

Its hard to know what would have happened if it survived. It would be shockingly overcapacity with the city being so much bigger and it would be difficult to upgrade it. There's a limit to the number of single unit trams you can fit

However we might have a city that's much more focused on pedestrians and public transport instead of being the sea of cars and buses it is today

loco_scolo · 20-02-2025 08:23AM

Here it is! Was pretty extensive. Solid Reds were tram lines, dashed reds were "motor buses".

bk · 20-02-2025 10:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123190250#Comment_123190250

I think the maps on the following page give a clearer view of just the tram network. The above map is too crowded with bus routes in addition to the trams, making it hard to make out.

http://www.tundria.com/trams/IRL/Dublin-1938.php

Looking at it, I'd say the coastal lines wouldn't make much sense today given DART. Maybe just the Clontarf section as far as Bull island.

Lucan would be great of course.

The Luas Red and Green lines actually overlap with lots of the city center sections. The Red line along Abbey street to the Docks. The Green line is smack bang in the middle of a couple of those south city lines, going through the city, up OCS and up towards the Glasnevin.

If we build the Lucan Luas we will be 80% of the way there and if we do other bits of the Luas 2050 vision we would definitely surpass the old network.

I note that the old network used the quays, something I've suggested would make sense for the Luas 2050 Vision.

bk · 20-02-2025 10:40AM

Luas 2042 and 2050 Visions for comparison:

yagan · 20-02-2025 10:52AM

The vintage Trams in Lisbon are of a similar era if you want a sense of their pace and small size. They're certainly not making their money from commuters who use the quicker modern trainlines and metro. I think they survived because Portugal went broke fighting wars to retain their empire. As Portugal grew as an EU member the old trams became a tourist attraction while new transport lines expanded.

So even if we had somehow retained some of the trams we'd still need to have upgraded new forms of mass transit rather than just letting car congestion take over.

quokula · 20-02-2025 11:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123189825#Comment_123189825

Is there really no doubt it was a mistake? Forget the Luas, the trams were replaced by buses, because buses are superior in pretty much every practical way except for electrification, which is something that fortunately is coming back to buses now. Buses replaced trams because they were quieter, faster, more maneuverable, easier to maintain and routes could be updated to meet changing needs without ripping up streets.

So instead of saying we went from 23 lines to 2 lines, the reality is that we went from 23 lines to 120 bus routes. I don't know how the "sea of buses" is any worse for pedestrians / public transport usage than a similar sea of trams that would be needed to serve as many passengers. And all those tram lines would almost certainly be worse for cyclists.

riddlinrussell · 20-02-2025 11:30AM

I'd also say you're basically looking at two entirely different concepts when looking at classic trams vs modern trams.

One is 'I want to pull more people faster than a few horses can' this concept was obviously superceded, as combustion engines became more reliable, by buses as mentioned, for their flexibility.

The other is "Light Semi-Segregated Railway" and giving them their own rarely shared right of way and priority at junctions is key to how they function (alongside the size difference).

If we had somehow 'retained' our network here, it wouldn't have been fit for purpose as the city expanded, so unless we had some truly innovative public transit minds, we weren't going to come up with the modern tram concept or keep the trams around long enough for the French to invent it as they did in the 80s.

Best case we'd retain maybe something like the Hill of Howth tram as a curio and tourist draw, but even if you imagine we had developed the modern tram concept, you'd effectively end up with the LUAS on some slightly different routes, probably a few more of them but a lot of the trams still mothballed.

Dublin would definitely be a more PT focused city in that case but you're talking about a vanishingly small hypothetical at that point...

bk · 20-02-2025 11:46AM

The thing that strikes me when you look at pictures of OCS in the 1950's, is how relatively few cars there are, how relatively empty it looks. With so few cars in the city, the buses at the time most have been able to move extremely quickly compared to today. I suspect the new bus services in the 50's and 60's were actually much faster then the old trams and why they were so popular with the public at the time and no one was missing the old trams.

The problems came later when more and more people bought cars and filled the streets with those cars, it was all the traffic congestion that impacted the buses and slowed them down to the crawl that they now are.

Which is why we now need dedicated bus lanes and bus gates and dedicated tram lines and junction priority and DART and Metrolink, to work around the car congestion.

Economics101 · 20-02-2025 01:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123190702#Comment_123190702

Lisbon trams are narrow-gauge (<1 metre) and while they may have been useful in a very compact hilly city centre, they had severe limitations once the city (like Dublin) started to spread out. What really killed off much of the Lisbon network was the development of a Metro, from quite modest beginnings in the 1960s to a quite comprehensive system to-day.

The same country who you say was broke fighting colonial wars, managed quite a large investment in a new (and undoubtedly expensive) Metro.

Dublin's Luas is a huge success, apparently about half the mileage of the Manchester network, and carying far more passengers.

20-02-2025 01:54PM

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the_amazing_raisin · 20-02-2025 02:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123190749#Comment_123190749

Ttue, however I feel like if those existing tram lines were still in place then having a more extensive LUAS system would be easier and cheaper to accomplish

Also the old trams were electric, which would definitely have been a bonus to air quality

EchoIndia · 20-02-2025 02:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123190920#Comment_123190920

Another factor that may have contributed to the speed of buses back then was the use of conductors. These days, even if everyone has a Leap Card, there is still a slight pause in the boarding process every time someone taps and there's always someone whose card doesn't work first time, or has some other problem. I've been in other countries where there are multiple "tap" points on a bus and it is down to the passengers to be honest enough to tap once on board, or face a big fine.

The Mathematician · 20-02-2025 04:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123191599#Comment_123191599

I think that would be a pretty small factor compared to the delays due to cars. If you travel late at night, you will see just how fast buses can be even if they have to stop regularly.

Ash.J.Williams · 20-02-2025 04:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058397222/were-the-old-dublin-trams-better-than-the-luas

I think you mean tram lines

EchoIndia · 21-02-2025 12:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123192085#Comment_123192085

It's still a factor, though, even where there are bus lanes and particularly at peak times. Obviously, traffic patterns are different at night but for the most part that's not when large numbers of people are travelling (excepting the "last bus" and similar late-night services).

Sam Russell · 21-02-2025 12:51PM

Assuming Metrolink goes to Sandyford, the stub of the Greenline should head along Adelaide Rd to GCD and on to Ringsend. It could also be sent along the South Circular to meet up with the redline at Dolphins Barn. This could result is several connections and route possibilities, allowing passengers to get closer to their destination.

dazzler101 · 21-02-2025 12:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123190250#Comment_123190250

Nice pictures. would be great for my home office as i work with maps.

Never knew the old tram lines were that extensive. nice views heading up and down the coast.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-07-2025 09:01PM

The old trams were very slow and low capacity. So no.

cgcsb · 28-07-2025 07:40AM

to answer the OP's question the old tram had more extensive coverage but less frequency, capacity and certainly a lot less passenger comfort than luas. They were bone shakers and you'd be liable to get flung from one end of it to the other as it rounded corners.

That being said I do appreciate the aesthetics of the streets back then, all simple, elegant and at the same level, it really shows how the car ruined the city, it's all kerbs and an endless sea of poles and signage for car drivers to ignore. Dublin is especially bad for this, worse than any other European city in my experience with random useless signs aplenty. One can only assume there's some TDs with a road sign making company.

I would happily bring the old street layout back and ban road signage completely and limit all cars in the city centre to an access-only arrangement. Any information needed by road users should be intuitive or written on the carriageway in giant lettering, make bus lanes and bus gates 24hr with a camera on top of the traffic lights. All you need to know is it says 'Lana Bus' so there's no shock when the fine arrives by post.

the_amazing_raisin · 28-07-2025 08:26AM

On a slightly different note, Athens is replacing their trolley bus fleet with electric buses and removing the overhead wires

https://www.electrive.com/2025/07/26/trollybuses-in-athens-are-being-replaced-by-battery-powered-buses/

It does raise an interesting point, there isn't many companies that would be building and supporting single carriage trams nowadays. So it's possible that the tram fleet would need to be replaced with buses regardless of whether they had lived on

There's always going to be an argument that we could build and maintain the trams here in Ireland, but that's always been a stretch so you'd likely end up with some semi state company kept afloat by the government. That in turn makes it vulnerable to the privatisation axe every time there's an election and some party is promising tax cuts

bk · 28-07-2025 08:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676293#Comment_123676293

The assumption would be that if the old tram network survived, it would have been upgraded and modernised to a Luas style service by now on the same routes. At least that is what happened in some other European cities like Amsterdam, where long Luas style trams now run on what use to be the old network.

KrisW1001 · 28-07-2025 09:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676344#Comment_123676344

Yes, I cannot think of any city that retained its tramway where the service was not modernised over time. The extreme cases are Stuttgart, Hannover and Cologne, where the historic tramways were extended and developed to become the city’s underground rail network (“U-Stadtbahn”).

The only place you see old-fashioned single-car trams is in tourist districts on “heritage” lines. That might be why so many people think trams are an antiquated transport technology. Lisbon and San Francisco have a lot to answer for.

Sam Russell · 29-07-2025 07:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676180#Comment_123676180

I saw a car travel down Westland Row in the bus lane, and turn left onto Pearse St (which is illegal). They should have put a camera on that junction.

It was an Audi.

cgcsb · 29-07-2025 07:58PM

Modern Irish culture is not exactly conducive to rules or enforcement of rules. We chose to create a society with few consequences for historical/cultural reasons and it will only get worse

Cyclingtourist · 29-07-2025 08:23PM

No and I remember travelling on the last remnant from Sutton to Howth Summit. I also remember the tracks on O'Connell Street that were eventually taken up and the CIE and GNR busses that competed on some routes.

Very different times.

KrisW1001 · 30-07-2025 07:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123681451#Comment_123681451

That’s an outdated stereotype - it’s really not true anymore: for instance, if I wanted to cheat on my taxes, I’d move to the UK first, because HMRC never go after you; Revenue, on the other hand… . Compliance with motoring laws here is also high - I’ve never seen an Irish driver not use a seatbelt, and our drink-driving compliance is better than our peers, and a universe ahead of countries like the USA. There are problems of mostly British licence holders dodging prosecutions for motoring offences - especially NI residents, but that’s their culture, not ours.

The fact that Sam was annoyed that he saw a car break the bus-lane rule and remembered the make of car shows in itself that it’s not the norm, and driving in bus-lanes is something that I hear people complain about too.

We’re generally no less law-abiding than our neighbours. The difference is that almost everyone here has a lot of experience of living in Ireland, and very little experience of living in countries that have the reputation of being law-abiding. We know where all the cow **** is in our field, and can’t see it in theirs, so theirs looks greener.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t people who’ll try it on, but it’s untrue to say “we” created a society with no consequences for rule-breaking. Try telling someone you don’t pay your taxes, and see the reaction you get - it’s not the 1970s anymore.

Were the old Dublin trams better than the Luas?

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