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Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

15052545556

Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW We were talking about EV coaches yesterday, here is an interesting company in Scotland, Ember, who is now operating a fleet of almost 20 BEV (Youtong) coaches on intercity services in Scotland:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ember_%28coach_operator%29#Fleet

    So maybe BEV coaches aren't as far off on at least some routes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 963 ✭✭✭d51984


    Just going back to the 3 hydrogen buses in operation with Bus Eireann for a moment, would part of the problem be that everytime they have to refuel it has to be done in Bluebell? Now im no expert on this, would it be a big job to install a hydrogen storage tank in Broadstone, and could newer coaches like the LF be easily converted to Hydrogen?

    Its a disgrace Joe!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 963 ✭✭✭d51984


    Also, could the current diesel buses not be run on bio diesel? Short .term solution I know ..

    Its a disgrace Joe!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes that is part of the problem, but the bigger issue is how expensive Hydrogen is, it is multiple times the cost of Diesel, so it really doesn't make sense.

    While BEV needs infrastructure like chargers, etc. once up and running the cost of fuel is typically a lot cheaper then Diesel.

    Hydrogen storage tanks at Broadstone, possible but probably tricky. Hydrogen is very difficult to handle, far more difficult then Diesel. You might have issues with the nearby houses and planning permission for it.

    Yep, like the HVO that An Post uses in some of their trucks.

    Strictly speaking not zero emissions, but I agree it could reduce emissions and could be a temporary solution. However I think HVO pricing is also higher then Diesel.

    I do think if MCS is launched and worked, it will enable BEV coaches, it might just take a few years longer then with the city buses.

    Post edited by bk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Dublin Express have also moved all their coaches (at least the BK operated ones, not sure about the Quinns ones on the 785) to HVO as well



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭john boye


    Was Dublin Bus Broadstone depot fitted with any provisions for future electrification when it was being done up? It was only a few years ago so it would have been wise to. Of course it might have ended up being for nothing anyway with Phibsboro taking up so much power next door.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,913 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I'd say yes, especially for coach operators that use a proper station as their termini. The infrastructure, ie rapid chargers, should be fairly easy to install at these locations.

    The Dublin Coach ideology of filling the busses diesel tank once per day and dropping you off on the side of the road would struggle mind…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭AX636


    1000080428.jpg

    OOne of the new EW'S for Harristown with the GSR'2 equipment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69 ✭✭hfjm20


    Any idea when these will come into service?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭AX636


    Soon enough, as soon as all drivers in the garage are trained up on them, they will be going on the 40D first



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,035 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Doesn’t Harristown need all the of the charging equipment to be installed and the necessary power upgrades to be completed first?

    That’s several months away yet as far as I understand it?

    Post edited by LXFlyer on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69 ✭✭hfjm20




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭AX636


    Was told they should be up and running soon, take it with a pinch of salt tho



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭AX636


    They will eventually, things change daily in Dublin Bus



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 963 ✭✭✭d51984


    Its really nice to see the fleet, not just in Dublin but nationwide develop and the latest technology been rolled out. I have to say I like the 'new' TFI green livery, it gives a modern fresh look to the different classes of buses.

    Hats off to Wrightbus on these new electroliners, as a passenger there smooth, fresh, modern and are a dream to travel on ,compared to the older types they are replacing.

    We have come a long way from clapped out Bombardiers constantly breaking down everywhere, leaking oil all over the streets, smelly damp and dusty seats, clapped out interiors that were far from wheelchair friendly.

    These new electric buses, coupled with new routes like the N4, N2, new 24 hour bus routes, liffey valley interchange, 90 minute fares, more frequent routes, new local link services been added almost weekly, new town bus services…

    We are not there yet folks, but we are in a much better position then we have ever been, looking forward to the next phases.

    Its a disgrace Joe!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 439 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I agree. I know some people can get nostalgic about the old buses, but I really prefer newer buses (EWs and PAs especially) both as a passenger and a pedestrian/person existing in the city.

    As a passenger I find them more comfortable, quieter, and the PIS easier to read, especially on the EWs with the screens. I am hoping that someday the EW PIS could be upgraded give a rough real-time location or show the location of upcoming stops on a map. I was on a trip recently, and I was a bus that displayed a real time map and it was very helpful as tourist.

    As a pedestrian/person existing however, I really want to stress how much quieter they are than the old buses and how much nicer it is to be in the same space. If I am walking next to a busy street (Quays, Pearse street, etc) and trying to have a conversation with someone, the old buses are loud enough to interrupt a conversation. It makes the outdoor areas surrounding the busy bus corridors much nicer to spend time in, includes parks, cafes, pubs, the list goes on.

    I really am looking forward to see how the fleets evolve to decarbonisation, to see which companies and models we get, what types of buses, etc.

    I will say however, and I am not sure if this is a controversial opinion, I don't like the TFI green livery. It's not a bad livery by any means, and more important than being a good livery, it does its job in unifying the branding of the various operators. I just prefer some of the other previous liveries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69 ✭✭hfjm20


    I slightly miss the old Db livery, especially on the SG’s. I wish they had just implemented the new livery on the buses that came in after it was announced. Apart from that, it’s nice to see some positivity about Busconnects on this website. I agree that the PA’s and the EW’s, especially with the extra legroom upstairs, are far more comfortable than some of the older models that some people on these forums love. I haven’t had the chance to use the EW’s hugely but the limited experience I have with them has been some of the most comfortable buses I’ve taken in this country



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    As a passenger I find them more comfortable, quieter, and the PIS easier to read, especially on the EWs with the screens. I am hoping that someday the EW PIS could be upgraded give a rough real-time location or show the location of upcoming stops on a map. I was on a trip recently, and I was a bus that displayed a real time map and it was very helpful as tourist.

    While not a full map, BE has a much more informative PIS for a few years now:

    Untitled Image

    They also have them on some city buses.

    Though a screen like this in future would be awesome (and could help with the need to display Irish too). Note the icon for lines to interchange with:

    Untitled Image

    I agree completely that the newer buses and in particular the EW's are brilliant from a passenger and urban perspective.

    And yes, BusConnects has brought some fantastic enhancements to the bus service and I'm excited to see more to come like next gen ticketing, more 24/7 routes, infrastructure, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    Not a fan of the new livery myself. Preferred the original TFI livery that GAI used at the start and some BE buses still have. Also think there should be two liveries one for urban services and another separate livery for provincial services.

    I think a tourist for example you could quite easily get on a BE bus in Dublin city centre by mistake and then discover the bus won't stop to let you off until you get well outside of Dublin.

    Most cities I've been to have different liveries for BE type provincial services and a one for regular city buses and we did have this when DB buses were blue and yellow and BE was still white and red now everything is all green and yellow. I realise down in Cork and Limerick everything was always BE red and white.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    I get wanting to keep the city/commuter/regional PSO liveries the same, but the respective buses should at minimum have something on the side about the type of service (i.e. TFI City, TFI Commuter, etc.)

    In terms of displays, I agree the ones on the EWs have great potential but are implemented very poorly. Sure the TFI Logo clashes with the background colour so you can barley even make it out!

    Hopefully the display design is something that is tackled with the revised design guide that the NTA is drafting up currently. Although I think that was more for street signage etc. The last version was from 2014 and was already quite out of date so I can see why they're looking to revise it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    They could have put the current TFI green and yellow on the city buses and kept the original TFI livery for the provincial buses. I thought the original livery looked really good on the GAI LFs now their in the new livery.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 439 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I would love to see displays like the second one across the network. One of my big gripes with the current PIS systems is how reliant on audio they can be for any additional information. On a busy bus/tram/train it can be difficult to hear, let alone if a passenger is hearing impared. I think it could also work well with BC and could prevent interchange information from being too cluttered or hard to read.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 439 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Truthfully I don't think having a consistent livery is the problem, but likely other factors about the network that may mean having a consistent livery is a problem. I think liveries beng that helpful is not a sign that they should be used for identifying various services, but that there are underlying issues with the network meaning you may have to. Four problems I could immediately think of are:

    Timetables should be better consolidated onto one website, especially for all PSO services. Having to look between 3 different websites (for Dublin) is tedious and casues confusion. The TFI app/website does help, but quality aside I don't think it has enough informations at times and can be very tedious to use if you are trying to plan more than a few hours in advance. This can be even worse in areas where town services are operated by smaller operates, whether that be local link (most town services) or a private company (such as Wexford town and Tralee).

    There should be more/better network maps. This is also related to website consolidation, as you should be able to find maps showing both regional and city routes on them. Not only do several town networks not have any map, technically dublin doesn't even have a proper network map. The official map on TFI is for rail only and is out of date since the introduction of the new fare zones.

    Information at bus stops needs to be improved. I have noticed some routes have abstract transit maps and I think that is helpful, and should be introduced to more routes as I have so far only seeing them at G-spine stops. Though I also think displaying higher detail maps would also be good. Additionally I think there needs to be better information for interchanges, such as arrows pointing where to go to switch betwen regional and city services, between BC spines, etc.

    Most importantly, there should never be duplicate numbers within the same region. This honestly shouldn't even be a problem. A quick run through the DB, BE, and GAI websites and I found 4 duplicates: 4, 111, 120, 130, and this has gotten better since the start of BC.

    I know this might sound a bit like I'm ranting about other issues, but I also do get where you are coming from as I have been there. I believe this is related to the livery problem you mention, as I think it is all related to a lack of accessible and concise information and/or being given confusing or inconsistent information. I don't believe you should have to look at a bus's livery just to figure out which website to go to for a timetable or to find information about the route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭halfpastneverr


    I've seen a hydrogen SG type looking TFI liveried bus around the city the last 2 days. SSG, Klidare St, Baggot St areas. Couldn't catch the 'operated by' logo on the side unfortunately.

    Is this just one of BE's lot doing driver training/maintenance testing spins? or are DB getting a few in to cover shortfall for the buses going to GAI?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    That would most likely be one of the three Hydrogen buses operated by Bus Eireann that have been on long-term trial. They are only really used on peak-time 103X/105X services. Also, while they are based in Broadstone - in order to refuel them they have to go all the way to the BOC yard on the Naas Road, as that's the only place capable of refueling them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,913 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    That second screen can reach the Irish language requirement by changing every few seconds from English and back

    Little bit of tech can keep everybody happy



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I absolutely HATE screens that switch between English and Irish! It makes it far less usable. What if it is displaying Irish when your planned stop is approaching and many/most people haven't a clue what the Irish means.

    Personally I prefer to just drop the Irish because it is nonsense and makes public transport less usable and clear.

    But if they have to have Irish, I prefer large wide screens that can display both the English and Irish at the same time. So the info is always there in English and thus more usable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,913 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    How often is your planned stop less than the few seconds it takes for the screen to change? How many people don't know the stop name in English and Irish by now?

    This is how it works on the Alicante/Benidorm Tram, an area of Spain with a lot of English speakers being catered to while at the same time keeping their own language alive



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Bus stops in Dublin can be very close together and often the screens don't switch fast enough, specially as they also rotate through other messages like stopping, destination, etc. I've often seen situations where there isn't enough time to display the stop it is stopping at. Even without Irish, the ones on DB are poor, BE have much better screens.

    This is particularly important on double deckers where it can take time to get down the stairs and through the crowd and the screens only show the next stop (and only some of the time) instead of the next few stops.

    Most people don't have a clue what most stop names are in Irish, specially as many of the stop names are so poorly translated or just made up.

    This is how it works on the Alicante/Benidorm Tram, an area of Spain with a lot of English speakers being catered to while at the same time keeping their own language alive

    You see that is the problem right there, you aren't trying to improve the usability of public transport, you are trying to save an almost dead language. You want to make the usability of public transport worse and less clear for your own goal.

    And it is a silly comparison! They aren't trying to keep their language alive, because it is very much alive! It is the mother tongue of the majority of Spanish people and it is actually the second most wildly spoken "first language" in the world, actually ahead of English!

    They likely display English too, because it is the "lingua franca" of Europe, the most wildly spoken second language of Europe.

    So they are displaying the language that the majority of local people speak and also a language that the majority of tourists/visitors can speak, that seems like good communications.

    To be honest, given the number of Spanish students I see on the 123, you'd be better off replacing Irish with Spanish, it would be more useful!

    I really hate all the money that is wasted putting Irish on signs, it is all just perpetuating a lie. That Irish is alive and well rather then the truth that it is an almost dead language and getting worse. The politicians can pat themselves on the shoulder and say they are helping the language, when in reality it is doing sweet feck all and the language is dying.

    I'd rather see the money invested in things like more Gaelscoileanna, reforming Irish language education in schools, etc. Get people actively speaking it!

    Getting back to the topic on hand. If we have to have Irish on the screen, then my preference is nice large, wide screens that can display both the English and Irish side by side, without swapping and ideally show multiple different info at the same time, ideally the next 4 or 5 stops, giving people time to get downstairs and prepare for the stop.

    I want to see clear and easily usable public transport system.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,913 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    If bus stops in Dublin are very close together then what's the harm in missing one stop? Not much of a walk to the stop before in that case. Generally if you're on a crowded bus you know that you will need to start making your way down the steps well in advance of your stop

    I find the exact opposite with peoples knowledge of Irish, remember most of the country did Irish for leaving cert which stop names are so poorly translated or just made up exactly? Do you have examples?

    The language we should all be trying to 'save' is far from dead and including 2 languages on info screens isn't a difficult task that most other countries manage fairly well. That's just a rant against the Irish language, your own national language no less

    For completeness of your point how much extra does it cost putting Irish on signs? How many Gaelscoileanna would you open with the savings?



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