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Flight to Gatwick crashes near airport in Ahmedabad, India,

15681011

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,337 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Honestly, and not as a professional pilot but as someone with a long interest in the field…

    To bring down the aircraft.

    Barring a need to restart an engine in flight after a compressor stall or other such issue? Or to cut fuel to an engine on fire in flight.

    There is nothing else I can think of and certainly no reason to shut off fuel to both simultaneously during takeoff. It is the portion of the flight envelope that requires absolutely most of the available power.

    Shutting down both engines as the wheels lift? Is unsurvivable! At altitude you can trade height for speed, on takeoff though? An aircraft has enough of neither.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭purplefields


    The human brain can sometimes act very strangely. An example of this is the Moorgate Tube Crash, where the driver could have been in some trance like state. Some people believe that was a suicide too.

    In this case, it happened in one of the most stressful parts of the flight.

    I've sometimes done odd things without realising, and I'm sure most other people have too.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Shutting down the engines at the end of a flight, for starters.

    Fuel cut-off switches are common on many vehicles for shutting down the engine, from tanks to Cessnas. Fuel starvation tends to do a good job of turning off an engine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭purplefields


    Fire, as mentioned above. Or a fuel leak, or other problem with an engine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I was referring to pilots/engineers noticing that the locking mechanism of the switches were defective and reporting it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Thanks for the various answers. So it's a little bit like the key or ignition switch of a car? How come it's located so near the key controls? I have no idea of why it's there but as a person with no clue I'd have thought logic would imply that an on/off switch would be put elsewhere?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It's basic sense in a cockpit to place controls for systems in logical places and grouped by function, not randomly scattered all over the place. This is a really basic principle of ergonomics.

    I'm wondering at this point how many bloody times it needs to be pointed out that the switches are not 'easily' moved from the on position to the cutoff position. These switches are immune from being inadvertently knocked. There is no problem with the positioning of the switches, they are in a logical place and their position only gets changed through deliberate action.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,563 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Apparently they do change their position, without deliberate action.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    They've had a month. They knew who said what a long time ago. They knew it was the pilot who called the mayday on the day the accident happened. They delayed the initial report the maximum amount of time they were allowed to.

    They are still hard at work, saving face, just as they have done, and are doing, with the loss of a Rafale and other planes, to Pakistan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I'm sure you have some relevant examples to share, preferably involving planes in flight?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,071 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    They should hide the control column as well given that they could use it to inadvertently steer the plane



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,563 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    I have nothing but what was posted here, that referred to fact they can disengage

    ''

    The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) had issued Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) No. NM-18-33 on December 17, 2018, warning of the potential disengagement of the fuel control switch locking feature''



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    I actually came on to post the phrase “the call of the void”! Like you said, the human brain is an odd contraption at times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,563 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    ……..He's adamant it was one of the pilots



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    To me, the potential for something happening, is distinctly different from a claim that something has happened more than once.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Could one of them have been brainwashed by Al Quada or them other ones that were around a few years ago cutting people's heads off. Don't remind me. I have forgot there name and don't want it back in my head. They were bad people. Maybe they told him if he killed so many he would go to heaven or whatever.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭Timistry


    was there not an observation too very early on that that flaps were not in the correct position therefore no lift?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭Cordell


    That's not what it says! It says that the locking feature can potentially disengage, meaning that the switch becomes easier to be switched into the cutoff position, but that doesn't mean it can go into that position by itself.

    If you want, it's somehow like the Reverse lock on your gearshift lever, even it that fails your car doesn't randomly go into reverse, you still need to shift it.

    I think it's time to accept this for what it is.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The conspiracy theory part of my brain is wondering if it might have been hypnosis. “You will have no memory of this session. You will set the fuel cut-off to off after rotation. You will forget you did this once done”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    We may never know. Maybe like after MH380 they will or are going through both pilots social media to see were they in touch with Al Quada or some other terrorist group.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,563 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,563 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Could it be an absolute cognitive lapse on a giant scale,

    '' gear up ''

    instead turns off fuel

    I know it was mentioned gear never went up, at a time it was normal to do so, instead fuel was shut off



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,164 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I presume they've been looking into both pilots' backgrounds more generally. Nothing suggestive has come into the public domain about either AFAIK…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I think they usually call out 'gear up' and there's no mention of it in the report.

    The timeline is:
    00:08:39 Take off
    00:08:42 One cut off switches activated
    00:08:43 Second one switched off
    Conversation with the pilot asking why he done it etc….
    00:08:52 One switched back on
    00:08:56 Second switched back on

    There's no time reference for the conversation so obviously the pilot didn't ask why the other one switched the fuel off and then waited a whole 9 seconds to switch it back on. I assume there was a lot of confusion. Same reason for the 4 second gap between turning each one back on. I'd guess it's hard to do while holding the yolk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 104 ✭✭Nightwing1862


    Al Qaeda would have been very quick to take credit for the crash if they had anything to do with it. Don't think there's been any suggestion that there was any terrorist involvement.

    I don't really understand why the pilot who cut off the fuel would deny it straight afterwards if he did it intentionally. It doesn't really fit with a suicidal motive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    He's not going to admit it, if he switched it off.
    What's gets to me (if it was pilot suicide) is there's still a risk that the pilots could have survived or the entire plane (if the fuel switches were put back quicker or cut off later etc…) I won't speak to what goes into people minds that want to commit suicide, but I'd imagine they want some control of it.

    I just want it to be anything other than pilot suicide. A technical fault, when found makes flying safer for the future, even human error can be worked on and procedures put in place to mitigate it. Parts and procedures don't actively try to circumvent the safety procedures like pilot suicide, terrorism or sabotage do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭blackvalley


    Perhaps it is happening already but due to this unfortunate event is there not a strong argument to be made for permanent video recording of everyone on the flight deck while airborne. Not suggesting that this would prevent those with bad intentions carrying out their plans but at least it would help in the investigation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭blackvalley


    And on the subject of video surveillance why are commercial aircraft not fitted with multiple cameras to monitor all engines and controls surfaces that are outside the view of those on the flight deck. The idea of a member of the crew walking down the aisle and looking out to see which engine is not working sounds absurd and comical and in some cases tragic.
    If every Dublin bus is fitted with twelve cameras why is every commercial aircraft not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The switches are guarded, and require a pull and move motion (although there has been some doubt about the pull requirement).

    As Oscar Wilde might have said, to accidentally move one cutoff switch may be regarded as a misfortune; to move both looks like carelessness deliberate action.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Much has been made of the cutoff switches, and the fact that they need to be manually pulled out then pushed down to cutoff. Visions of pulling out the switches one by one (thumb & 1st finger) with some effort due to spring loading. That's what I visualised.

    Just watched a cockpit video on Indian TV where the host discussed the cutoff switches with a pilot who flicked them off with minimum effort, (very very light springs) just a gentle pull out then down, 'flick flick' hardly any effort at all and both engines are cut off.

    Is it too easy to turn off the engines?

    Post edited by Hamsterchops on


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