World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

It’d be an oddly specific assertion, more akin to affirming a child’s religious identity, which would explain why it couldn’t and can’t exist in any accepted theory of child psychology. That’s the closest parallel I could think of, I get what you’re saying.

And I don’t expect doctors would normally admit on television that they ask parents do they want a healthy child or a dead child in order to have the parents follow the treatment. I get what you’re saying about the emotional blackmail of suggesting suicide unless the parents agree to whatever is being suggested, but that’s by no means restricted to being used on parents whose child or children have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, or incongruence or whatever else.

The commonality I was getting at is the ease with which the drugs can be procured, far beyond the figure of what’s thought to be the 500k for whom the drugs are prescribed, which means the figures are likely to be vastly underestimated for both conditions. I know there’s overlapping between those figures too in a kind of chicken and egg way.

Deleted, apologies, wrong thread

Another myth: transsexuals have existed throughout history. BS. People having a sex change op in olden times would have either bled to death instantly or died from infection very soon after.

The fact that medical professionals are instructing children to go behind their parents back to access gender affirming "care" is deeply sinister. The same with schools having a policy of not informing parents if their child is transitioning. Its a situation ripe for exploitation by those with nefarious intentions. Anyone telling kids to keep things from their parents and that they are there for them instead isn't to be trusted.

In the U.K. this is mostly subterfuge and surreptitious manipulative BS as the parent has the ultimate legal say over a kid, but parents are often brow beaten, bullied, undermined and controlled by authorities.

In one of my advocacy roles when living in the U.K., it was always interesting to see authorities, medical professionals and school management jaws snap shut when I reminded them first and foremost of the sanctity of parental legal duty of care followed by professional involvement working in harmony for the well-being of the child. Amazing the amount of times I had to repeat this to reign in the over reach and BS.

The abuse of children and their rights by the system is endemic, if it wasn’t the trans abuse would never have happened to young people who are gay, lesbian or heterosexual and/or with special educational needs.

Humans, as Hamsterchops has eloquently and correctly written, have always been like this. Over stepping their authority and in hindsight often coming across as batshit crazy. It is why the Supreme Court’s finding was so important as a clarity in the rule of law. Some, however, are far too thick to understand why laws exist and continue over-ride, manipulate to the extreme.

the parent has the ultimate legal say over a kid

That's definitely not true in any legal sense, but can I ask which Supreme Court finding you're referring to that was so important as a clarity in the rule of law? I'm tryin to think of what you're referring to, but I can't think of a finding from the UK Supreme Court that made any findings about parental authority or the role of the school in terms of the rights of the child? I know that there was guidance released under the Conservative Government in the UK, but guidance is not law. I know that Liz Truss tried to introduce a Private Members Bill to bring clarity into law, but that went nowhere -

Former Tory Prime Minister Liz Truss, who previously presented a Private Member's Bill calling for social transitioning not to be recognised by schools for under-18s, said the guidance provided "insufficient protection and clarity".

Transgender guidance: Schools to keep parents informed

It's true, they weren't called transexuals, but in the process, that's essentially what they became; it wasn't about protecting women either, there was a bit more to it than that in that particular context, with women being regarded as the property of men at the time. But while that much that you're referring to was well known about, it doesn't detract from the fact that they were commonly known as eunuchs, just not everyone knew them as such, and while not all of them had their twig and berries removed, most of them did, in various cultures and at different times in history -

In China, castration included removal of the penis as well as the testicles (see emasculation). Both organs were cut off with a knife at the same time.

Eunuchs in China - Wikipedia

Transvestites isn't what you referred to in your original post though, I took it at face value that what you'd heard was transexuals, as opposed to the more common assertion that people who are transgender have existed throughout history. They have, BUT, they're not the same as transsexuals either. There's a bit of conflation going on. By that I mean that what would be today referred to as 'gender confirmation surgery', was then at the time simply referred to as a sex change, or a means of making a woman out of a man (still a contentious belief among biblical scholars, if funny things humans still believe tickles your funny bone!). It's still in some cultures referred to as a sex change, because I guess what else would they refer to it as? Certainly in Iran for example, as is the case with India, there isn't an equivalent idea in those countries which maps neatly to Western concepts -

But Iranian society’s utter vilification of homosexuals has prevented a truly open discourse with transsexuals, many of whom speak with disdain for those who are ‘kunis’ (‘anal’). Vida, a MTF transsexual who appears in Be Like Others says: “I know homosexuals, and I speak to them, but I am not friends with them. I don’t approve of their behaviour; it is un-Islamic.” Having experienced life on the margins, transsexuals are more accepting that most Iranians but not wholly so.

New Bodies, Old Norms: Transsexuals in Iran – The Isis

Sex change operations in a medical context, are certainly relatively new, as in around the turn of the last century when psychologists sought to formalise psychology as a legitimate scientific discipline, in order to distance itself from any moral or political influences (that worked about as well as expected), which is when psychologists like Magnus Hirschfield came up with the idea of finding a scientific basis for homosexuality, while Harry Benjamin was interested in what were then known as homosexual transexuals, etc, before he went on to found the organisation that then became what we now know as WPATH.

Prior to arriving in the United States, Benjamin studied at the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft; from about this time onward he began to encounter and treat patients who he would later describe as transsexuals. In the 1930s he studied in Austria with Eugen Steinach. In 1948, in San Francisco, Benjamin was asked by Alfred Kinsey, a fellow sexologist, to see a young patient who was anatomically male but insisted on being female. Kinsey had encountered the child as a result of his interviews for Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, which was published that year. This case rapidly caused Benjamin's interest in what he would come to call transsexualism, realizing that there was a different condition to that of transvestism, under which adults who had such needs had been classified to that time.

Despite the psychiatrists Benjamin involved in the case not agreeing on a path of treatment, Benjamin eventually decided to treat the child with estrogen (Premarin, introduced in 1941), which had a "calming effect", and helped arrange for the mother and child to go to Germany, where surgery to assist the child could be performed but, from there, they ceased to maintain contact, to Benjamin's regret. However, Benjamin continued to refine his understanding and went on to treat several hundred patients with similar needs in a similar manner, often without accepting any payment.

Many of his patients were referred by David Cauldwell, Robert Stoller, and doctors in Denmark. These doctors received hundreds of requests from individuals who had read about their work connected with changing sex, as it was then largely described.

However, due to the personal political opinions of the American doctors and a Danish law prohibiting sex reassignment surgery on noncitizens, these doctors referred the letter-writers to the one doctor of the era who would aid transsexual individuals, Harry Benjamin. Benjamin conducted treatment with the assistance of carefully selected colleagues of various disciplines (such as psychiatrists C. L. Ihlenfeld and John Alden, electrologist Martha Foss, and surgeons Jose Jesus Barbosa, Roberto C. Granato, and Georges Burou).

Excuse the late reply Bogey, been out taking advantage of the good weather today to increase my testosterone levels…complete bunkum of course. As for what I actually believe, well I don't know that it makes any difference to anyone who doesn't share my beliefs, but certainly I don't believe that a man who loses his genitals instantly becomes a woman. It takes a lot less than that to happen for me to point out to a man that he's a giant walking vagina. But, since you do ask about a man who gets cancer and has to have his testicles removed, or a soldier who gets them blown off by a mine, and how I would refer to them, I'd like to think I'd use what little bit of tact and manners I have to refer to them how they wish to be referred to, unless they gave me reason to refer to them otherwise. Of course removing sex organs doesn't alter anyone's chromosomes, but I've never classed anyone according to their chromosomes, as I've never seen those either, yet somehow I manage, everyone manages, without having to carry around a form of identification which contains their genetic information that they would have to produce for any jackass just because said jackass imagines they're entitled to see it. I can't think of any good that would come of such a policy decision were it ever implemented by any Government.

However, to go back to those men with the missing mebbs, I'm guessing even at this point you've never had reason to ask yourself how did medical professionals train in phalloplasty surgery anyway? The answer is a fairly simple one, you remember Michael Dillon from earlier?

While society accepted the use of phalloplasty to treat wounded soldiers during World War I and World War II, it did not extend the same acceptance to transgender people seeking out the procedure. Years after his phalloplasty, Dillon’s brother outed him due to Dillon's claim to an aristocratic title. Dillon’s older brother inherited the title of Baronet of Lismullen, Ireland, a title that gives the family noble status. The title would have gone to a younger brother but not a sister. In 1958, Dillon’s brother, who did not have any sons, fell ill, and made a statement to the press that he would rather end their family name’s ties to nobility than hand it over to Dillon. At the time, Dillon was working as a physician on a French ship, Liberté. Reporters showed up on the ship requesting to take Dillon’s picture and asked numerous invasive questions.

As for the pont about Iran - I wasn't holding them up as bastions of tolerance at all; I was simply making the point that contrary to Hamsterchop's assertion that the ideology was ever on the wane or is coming to an end, it's actually the opposite, and is being upheld in many parts of the world, even in the US where the current administration imagines that issuing an Executive Order which is itself based on nothing more than his own numbnuts ideology, means anyone has to take a blind bit of notice.

It's quite fascinating looking at the ideology now that it's on the wane and coming to an end. Going back through history there have been so many events like this whereby whole populations were captured by beliefs (that seems crazy to our modern enlightened minds), yet ….. here we are again, and this time it's all about being born in the wrong body!

If that's what enlightenment looks like, I'm glad to have no part in it.