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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Great interview, he does seem no nonsense, and had an appropriate answer for everything.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If the Gov have hired a Metrolink Chief, then they are unlikely to can it anytime. Also, he must be spending his day doing more than waiting on a RO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 193 ✭✭OisinCooke


    What are the actual threats to the Metrolink project as things stand? As has been said here it looks like the government want this to happen as much as we do and have poured a lot into it already, amplified by their hiring of a Metrolink Chief (who by the way is on by no means a small paycheck…), so if we assume that the government and cabinet aren’t an obstacle, is the RO and the JR system the only thing standing in the way?

    And am I right in saying that a JR can only be filed against the project if it has neglected to follow correct planning procedure (ie. not because Michael McHe-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named has a personal issue with it stopping in his neighbourhood) rather than a personal grievance?

    For example did the businesses lodging JRs against DART West not have grounds to do so on the fact that it was impeding on their business, so had to look for a hole in the project instead? Or is something as (on the scale of this kind of a transport infrastructure project) ‘trivial’ as a business being harmed, grounds for a JR?

    If not, and IF the only way to apply for one is on the grounds of planning malpractice, and IF the Metrolink planning application is watertight enough (which I think we have reason to believe it is, both with TII’s track record, and all the time it’s spent in and out of ABP) then am I right in saying a JR simply cannot be launched…?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Whether a JR can be launched is at the discretion of the Judge receiving the application I believe? The lady who wanted one effectively because she didn't want a bus stop outside her house, and more to the point basically did it herself without legal counsel, was granted leave for hers, which kind of made a farce of the entire procedure.

    I believe the Judge commended her for her effort up to that point, but said that she should get a lawyer for the actual JR itself.

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,358 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    He is spending his day presumably trying to drum up interest among major construction and transit companies willing to put forward bids as consortiums.

    Unfortunately Metro North done huge damage to the state's reputation with this project amongst some of the world's biggest contractors who were assured that was a serious project that was going ahead. And so they went out forming consortiums and bids spending a lot of money, time and energy in the process and they got burnt because the government pulled the plug.

    Going to be a difficult task convincing some of those same companies it's for real this time and that's going to be part of his job. Not easy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,139 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    There are currently 3 major potential obstacles, all with varying degrees of liklihood:

    1. The railway order which has yet to be granted, it could possibly be denied or have a part of the scheme denied that would make project non viable

    2. JR, we've seen that a JR can be allowed on virtually any basis and this has taken about a year to resolve on other projects. A JR could also be successful and can the project entirely

    3. Government, the government could commission an 'alternative to ML' report and say that it'd not worth the money.

    In terms of likliehood, ABP will almost definitely grant an RO but they could omit some part of the scheme e.g. the depot which would add years to the project to resolve as they done to DART+.

    A JR is extremely likely and could hold things up for 1 year

    Government is the million dollar question they could can it or built it, largely up to them. I think this is a 50/50 likelihood. It makes sense they proceed but it also made sense that they proceed on all predecessor projects from 1975 to 2025 and there's still no metro so make of that what you will.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 13,001 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The only other project that got anywhere near the same stage was Metro North and that got canned due to the country being bankrupt after the GFC. Outside of Russia actually kicking off WW3, I can't see that there is any chance that it doesn't go to construction once the planning hurdles are cleared.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 13,001 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    That case predates the Planning and Environment section of the High Court. Looking at the cases that this court has decided on recently I highly doubt future applications of that nature would be entertained.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,139 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    I would hope you are correct on that. Metro north was the most advanced version of this project, the others were canned earlier on in their lifespan. But I'm not convinced that the project reaching an advanced stage on paper will result on boots on the ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,622 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Mr Sweeney mentioned this in his earlier interviews: The Metro North cancellation did hurt our reputation as a government that follows through on its tendering process. However, at least during that period, we were far from the only government who pulled the plug on megaprojects. A major part of his job is to show the potential bidders that the project is ready to build, and more importantly, that the government will start it. Once it has started, it will be completed.

    Backing out now would be a major risk to the country - and not just for transportation. If we put this out for tender, then pull the plug again, it will mean that every future big infrastructure project we put out for tender will come back with a big fat “Irish government contingency” fee built into the tenders. It costs a lot of money to put together a tender of this scale - the construction costs absorb this as a cost of doing business, but if we get a reputation for not proceeding to construction, we will be the ones who end up paying.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The others never entered any realistic lifespan. They were crayons on paper level of planning.

    While I don't deny it may be true, that is incredibly stupid on the part of anyone who views it that way. It was a global financial crisis in which we had to be bailed out, were making massive cuts across the board to keep current spending going, and were under the auspices of the Troika who never in a million years have allowed Metro North to be built. But there is no accounting for stupidity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,757 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    was on the metro website for a look.
    Have to say I quite like the artistic pics of the stops etc.

    mainly though was wondering about the station before the airport-dardistown. Is that to open up that land for development? Industry or housing? I presume some industry. Don’t think there’s much in that bit of land currently



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,486 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Unless it has changed, I don't think they will be opening Dardistown station until the future. It will be the location of the Metro depot and control center. Finglas CC has a local area development plan for mostly offices and industry there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,757 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    ah cheers makes sense, hadn’t really dug into it, was really just on their map that that station stood out as an oddity



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Ah, the judge in that case, at least the start of it where she applied on her own, was Justice Humphreys, who is now head of the planning court.

    He is definitely against NIMBYism, and is very cognisant of the climate emergency, but he still had to interpret the law as it is, not make up his own definitions. If there's a failure in the docs somewhere, it'll still be a weakness for a JR, regardless of which judge or which court.

    In the BusConnects case, they never really explained why it needed to be there and not somewhere else, which is what her lawyers eventually homed in on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,622 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Metro North had got to the point where two firms were asked to submit Best and Final offers (RPA selects two bidders for Metro North project – The Irish Times). This was in Summer 2009, at which point the financial crisis was already biting in other countries.

    The decision to proceed with Metro North at this point in time was what gave us a bad rep. It gave bidders false confidence that the project was going to proceed despite the financial turmoil, but then the government at the time stalled and delayed for two years, adding ever more doubt and uncertainty to matters. Only the change of government in 2011 finally gave certainty on the project, when it was definitively cancelled.

    The proper thing to do would have been to announce indefinite suspension of Metro North at the end of 2008, once the government became aware of the true cost of recapitalising Anglo Irish Bank and its fellow travellers. What they actually did was string bidders along for two years, at a time when projects were hard to come by.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Tbh this seems to be a clever line from Sweeney that people are repeating over and over as if it’s some inside line.

    I’d agree with him in dialling up pressure on stakeholders here. There is nothing quite like the attention of Americans or Europeans to make them pay attention. And this plays into the cynicism out there.

    But let’s also be realistic. They’ll tender here if the work is put up. Anyone who tenders for work considers that they might not get the gig or it might be pulled. That Ireland pulled out of a major project is not unique, particularly given the circumstances. In its stead they moved forward with Luas Cross City.

    There has been various parties involved in Metro North tenders who have completed projects, are completing projects or are involved day to day in Ireland.

    I think the NCH and the discourse around that is a far bigger deal for people submitting tenders.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭spillit67


    The Sydney Metro had reached a similar stage and was cancelled in far worse circumstances. Australia / New South Wales had the fiscal and economic strength to go on with it but didn’t for political reasons (State vs. Federal nonsense). The project when revived a couple of years later with different politicians had no issue with getting tenders from similar consortiums.

    This is being deliberately inflated here to put pressure on the Government because Sweeney has cleverly figured out what makes Irish politicians tick. And I’d add that if you’ve paid attention to Sweeney he has previously mentioned the cross party support for Metrolink here that is unique. He is of course aware of Australia but also New Zealand of how political infighting has killed projects (we have McDowell here for ours really). He is talking to Ireland as a whole, because he is familiar with how any project anywhere can be cancelled for any number of reasons. The route to getting this through here is to make it a point of national pride.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ok, that's fair. I didn't know/remember the exact timeline of it all.

    It certainly looks worse laid out like that, but I don't think that event in and of itself amid a global financial collapse in which there was a lot of uncertainty and we were particularly badly hit is deserving of some grand reputation. It is essentially a once-off in a once in a century type event.

    I also don't think there is much of a chance of us putting this out to tender and then pulling it anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,934 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Government, or more specifically the Department of Public Expenditure, can still most certainly be an obstacle.

    These are the people who are still sitting on the decision to approve the next tranche of DART+ fleet which will replace the aging 8100 fleet months later.

    I certainly wouldn’t rule out the possibility of obstruction from them.

    Remember that the project has to get cabinet approval at each decision gate point.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,043 ✭✭✭plodder


    The Indo Daily have a podcast covering the same ground as the interview which is good as well.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 Thomas.Telford


    You'd have to hope that higher ups are hearing things about the railway order through the grapevine https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2025/0710/1522815-plenary-opens-new-dublin-office/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,180 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Just wondering but what role would plenary play in metrolink?
    I presume plenary are project managers but TII are the client and PM in this case no?
    Unless TII are subbing out the PM role?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭Bsharp


    They could play a role in the PPP M500 Team which involves construction of systems, provision of rolling stock & operation and maintenance of the system. Loads of scope in there for the likes of Plenary to advise on this.

    T&T, Mace and PwC are all on the Client Partner for Metrolink so TII is covered on that front.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,180 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    So T&T, Mace and PwC will all be PMs for the client which is TII?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,697 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I see the Sunday Business Post have an article outlining that Transport Infrastructure Ireland and the Land Development Agency are bidding on the €12m Emmaus Retreat Centre in Swords. It's adjacent to the Metrolink Estuary Station and terminus. NAMA are going to be handing over 212 acres of land to the Land Development Agency around the site too and it's envisaged that 15,000 homes will be built there.

    A positive development which shows that Transport Infrastructure Ireland have confidence that the project will be delivered, imho.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,139 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    sounds very positive, fingers crossed. Proceeding with the project may also be politically attractive in the 2029 elections, when completion dates and final costs wont yet matter in the political sphere but the optics of 'building' certainly will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭Bsharp


    https://www.metrolink.ie/en/news/procurement/dublin-metrolink-project-market-update-october-2023/#:~:text=4.,be%20adopted%20for%20the%20project.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭1huge1


    A decision on the MetroLink rail line, which has spent almost three years in the planning system, is expected to be issued within weeks, An Coimisiún Pleanála documents show.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2025/07/12/decision-on-9bn-metrolink-rail-project-expected-within-weeks/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,139 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    I wonder how many weeks would be great to see some progress soon



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