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Flight to Gatwick crashes near airport in Ahmedabad, India,

13468911

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The only kind of sabotage that I could imagine would be if one of the pilots deliberately cut the engines at that critical point in the flight.

    Well yes apparently there was a mayday call and whoever made it would or should have been aware of the actions of the other pilot if there was a deliberate throttle back or engine shut down (back in the day a flight engineer could have done that from his seat behind the pilots, but I'm not aware of any instance of that happening) - suicide by pilot is incredibly rare, and when it happened e.g. Germanwings it was pretty obvious what was going on.

    There were two pilots in that cockpit who didn't want to die and, as far as we know, did all they could to save that aircraft.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm not a pilot, just someone who reads The Aviation Herald a lot 😉 but I have been involved in software development for many years. Not in life-critical applications thank goodness - the notion that someone might die if I or a colleague had a bad day at work is scary (but of course in reality, there are many checks and balances in place in such cases)

    In general Boeing aircraft don't depend on computers to mediate between the pilots' control inputs and the control surfaces (ailerons, elevators, rudder) that actually control the plane. The 737, which is the most likely Boeing any Irish person is most likely to be flying on is still a very manual aircraft - even the MAX. Airbus are fly-by-wire but they have multiple computers which must agree, they have two teams writing software independently who should not both make the same mistakes, and millions of safe flight hours concur with this.

    For sabotage, you need means and motivation. The means is fuel, but at a large airport you have either an underground pipe system or a lot of fuel trucks. You couldn't be sure of sabotaging a specific flight - or even doing anything (due to a part fuel load) other than causing a flight or flights to have engine issues and land back. Motivation - short of some evil Bond villain who would want to make a specific flight crash? Now if there was some prominent Israeli or Iranian or whoever on board, then the speculation would be up to 90… but we have no indication of any passengers on board who were "worth" going to that extent to take out.

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    getting some prominent people is one thing another is severly damaging a company for whatever reason. air india was aquired not that long ago, 2021, from tata sons, a holding from tata group which is a huge global enterprise, involved in many, many fields with over 1 million employees!! https://www.tata.com/investors/companies

    I wouldn't exclude business crime here…but surely I don't know, it's still speculation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    So how much did their shares dip as a result of this? You'd have to be shorting their stock a hell of a lot to make anything much - especially as they're such a huge conglomerate with aviation just a part of their activities. Most of their money comes from steel… and tea plantations! Indians and Brits and Irish aren't going to stop drinking tea any time soon.

    When a Boeing crashes, their stock goes down a bit and recovers. When an Airbus crashes, their stock goes down a bit and recovers. There are a lot easier ways of making money.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    actually I realised it myself when writing it out.. because they are so big and invested in so many fields this one crash will not harm them a lot.. So, all in the open again…maybe fuel contamination (but not through sabotage) is the best bet yet..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭notAMember


    Fuel contamination doesn’t work with what we see though. The air craft did not deviate from its course even 0.1 degree. The engines were working perfectly at the start of the flight, with enough lift to get it off the ground.

    Thinking about what we see, without any black box.

    1. No bank, roll or yaw.

    2. hydraulic failure (fail to lift gear) or even put in lift position

    3. RAT deploy.

    If there was fuel contamination you would have seen a visible yaw, a rotation to one or the other side , followed by an adjustment, as each engine would get the contaminated fuel independently . This didn’t happen. No bank , roll or yaw.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Puff of smoke - left engine on take off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,050 ✭✭✭plodder


    Missed this from Wed. Focus on fuel cut-off switches. Preliminary report may be published today.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/asia-pacific/2025/07/09/air-india-crash-focus-on-jets-fuel-switches-ahead-of-preliminary-report/

    US aviation safety expert John Cox said a pilot would not be able to accidentally move the fuel switches that feed the engines. “You can’t bump them and they move,” he said.

    Mr Cox added that if a switch was shut off, the effect would be almost immediate, cutting off engine power.

    The media reports seem to be based off this industry publication. There's a very interesting photo of the switches and what it takes to operate them.

    https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/ai171-investigation-fuel-control-switches/

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭rogber


    So one of the pilots cut off the fuel just after takeoff - this another suicide by some maniacal man who has to take hundreds with him or why else would this happen?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Was it confirmed they were switched off in flight or just in the off position in the wreckage? What I mean is, if the engines failed and obviously they didn't have time to walk through a checklist so could they have been cycling the fuel switches on and off over again right until impact? I wouldn't be going down the suicide route so fast.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭Bocadilloo


    Prelim report is saying one pilot asked the other on the recording why did he shut off both fuel switches. The other pilot replied he did not. It can't be pilot error to shut both off.. Either sabotage or can it be proven that both switches could be turned off by a glitch somehow?? Scary either way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Its logged by the flight recorder. The suicide suspicion is top contender, given one pilot asks the other why he used the cutoff, who then denies it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I didn't realise it was the voice recorder. Definitely very strange unless there's a technical issue with the physical switches. The suicide suspicion, I dunno, right after takeoff, if you were planning suicide and the pilot managed to restart the engines or get the plane back on the ground safely or even crash landing where the pilots survived. Just seems crazy at takeoff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I got given out to previously but it was obvious to me that it was a low energy takeoff, not the normal climb proflie that's for sure.

    It seemed - not yet confirmed - that it had an unusually long takeoff roll, and that would explain the puff of dust on rotation because they were using a part of the runway which is not normally used.

    The 787 has an asymmetric thrust compensation system, but it'd have to be some mother f*cker to acheive what we saw on video if one engine had actually failed, climb out straight as a die with no visible rudder deflection, and the ailerons doing nothing either. Nah not happening. Not aerodynamically possible.

    So there was a loss of thrust, which was completely or almost completely symmetrical and "in phase" with each other - there's really only one possible explanation for that

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There were two pilots in that cockpit who didn't want to die 

    This comment is subject to review.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The aircraft went down the intended heading straight as a die and there was no visible rudder deflection. Those engines went down together at the same rate.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It is estimated that 25% of pilots' licences in India are fake.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,050 ✭✭✭plodder


    The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42 UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec. The Engine N1 and N2 began to decrease from their take-off values as the fuel supply to the engines was cut off.

    In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff. The other pilot responded that he did not do so.

    How strange is that? It looks like one of the pilots cut the engines but we don't know which one …

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭Exiled Rebel


    Just watched an expert on CBS say somebody had to have turned off the switches and it's not something you would do accidentally.

    He went on to say the flight data recorder will show when the switches were flicked.

    He categorically ruled out a malfunction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I assume the one pulling back on the yolk didn't have an extra hand to hit the fuel cut off on both engines in the space of 1 second. Also I'm sure they can tell by the voice, which pilot was asking why it was cut off. Definitely seems very strange.

    I assume one of them tried putting the fuel switches back on (although it takes some time though for the engines to spool back up) It's a baffling cause. People very quick to jump to a suicide cause and not a manufacturing issue with the fuel cut off switches.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭Bocadilloo


    Captain Steeve on YT gives a good explanation of the operation of cutoff switches. Basically they are spring loaded and not moving to cutoff unless manually moved by the pilot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I was watching his videos lately, he's very easy to watch. I'm just curious if there's a possibility for a manufacturing defect (weak spring and/or and the stop lock being rounded over time due to cheaper alloys etc.. and falling back to engine cut off value due to acceleration)

    Obviously both failing within 1 second is near impossible though.

    I just feel there's more to the story and people jumping to pilot suicide is a little too soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,164 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    The suicide suspicion is top contender,

    And I suspect has been with the experts from day one, given how they've seemed to struggle to come up with plausible alternative explanations. But for obvious reasons nobody wants to be pushing that angle until there's clear evidence to back it up…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,164 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭Wolf359f




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    They knew within a day or so. It doesn't take days or weeks to read the data off the recorders, the way they were spinning it made me suspicious; I knew they were lying.

    In the Germanwings crash in 2015, they recovered the cockpit voice recorder, badly damaged, on the 24th Mar. By the 25th they had solved the damage problem and recovered the audio, and so knew what had happened. On the 26th they announced what had happened.

    That was a very high energy crash, in this case it was a lower energy crash and the recorders were in good condition.

    We have had a whole month of stalling.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,050 ✭✭✭plodder


    Picture showing the switches. They have a spring loaded outer shell that needs to be pulled up to release a lock and then the switch can be moved. They are also protected by two flanges, either side, so you can't brush off them.

    switches-495.jpg

    I don't see any evidence of a conspiracy to stall these findings. They issued a status report on 26th June which indicated the timeline that was consistent with media reports. The boxes only arrived at the investigation facility on 24 June and they downloaded the data the following day. Apparently, the lab in Delhi was only recently upgraded to be able to decode the recorders and they were left in Ahmedabad until they made the decision to do the work in India or somewhere else.

    Not sure of the significance, but while the report doesn't say who made the Mayday call, the media reports initially were clear that it was the captain.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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