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Flight to Gatwick crashes near airport in Ahmedabad, India,

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,852 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    But why was the RAT deployed? If the plane was overweight or not at takeoff trust etc… the RAT wouldn't deploy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,854 ✭✭✭weisses


    RAT deploys automatically by electrical failure and hydraulic failure AFAIk



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    The evidence that it did deploy seems to be a very grainy pixellated image and the audio from the plane going overhead, which some have claimed sounds a lot like a RAT, with the absence of normal engine noise. Though, by now from examining the wreckage, I imagine that investigators probably know whether it did deploy or not. But, we're not going to know for sure until at least an interim report is published.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Theoretically you're correct on this. However if somebody wants to tamper with something, they will find a way.

    At the moment we don't know anything, we'd have to wait for the voice recorder and the flight data recorder to be examined.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Its the complete absense of engine noise in that clip that would make you think the engines are at idle or not running at all. You'd expect them to be at close to full thrust at that point.

    The noise in the video does sound very much like the RAT when compared to similiar videos of the same plane with the RAT deployed however obvously there were different audio equipment and distances to audio source involved etc.

    That said, at this point the investigators whether it was deployed and why it had been deployed at this point. They may not and probably don't yet know the root cause of the reason for whatever caused the RAT to be deployed to have failed in the first instance.

    It's an awful awful crash but probably could have been worse as there are more populated spots off the runway.

    As with the majority of these types of incident, there'll be more than one "reason" that this happened and it took all of the holes in the Swiss Cheese to line up to lead to the disaster.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Fuel contamination (don't know with what though) is supposedly the reason why another Air India flight had to turn back to Hong Kong today:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Believe it or not, there is bacteria, yeasts and fungi that can thrive in jet fuel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,831 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Hamsterchops specifically posited the 'wrong fuel' going into the plane's tanks. For that to happen either deliberately or by misadventure seems fanciful to me but perhaps your scenario is more plausible if the airline isn't completely on top of things…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,277 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Maybe let's try to stick within the bounds of reasonable possibility rather than entertaining ridiculous conspiracy theories?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    The CCTV seems to show the plane maintaining a straight ahead direction, after the problem arose. So, assuming the engines lost power, then both failed at exactly the same instant. It'd be really surprising if that was caused by a fuel issue. The chances of contaminated fuel affecting both engines at exactly the same moment, has to be very low.

    There's a reference here to a theory relating to a potential software problem, maybe similar to an incident that occurred in Japan in 2019 where both engines shutdown after landing and the plane was left stranded on the runway.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14845417/Plane-crash-disaster-attorney-reveals-technical-flaw-believes-caused-Air-India-tragedy.html

    Better description here:

    https://www.eplaneai.com/news/aviation-expert-suggests-boeing-787-software-may-have-contributed-to-ai-crash

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,008 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    At that time (15th June) many theories were swirling around on the internet, and I picked up on that one to add to the list of possibilities. Other theories included who pilot error (with the flaps lever being mistaken for the throttle). Another theory was that either the pilot or the Co pilot shut off the fuel supply by mistake!

    Then there was the bird strike theory, or maybe the plane was too heavy, or the the electrics failed?

    So here we are going into July and nothing official has been released yet, no nothing from the black boxes!

    Taking a while isn't it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    The boxes were badly damaged, which makes it harder to get the data off. I think the Indians are insisting that it's all done locally which may have caused further delay as well.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,071 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Why the delay?

    Would it normally take this long after a crash to release some info?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Seems they have the data and expect to have a preliminary report by the month anniversary (July 12)

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Wasn't the BA 777 Heathrow crash caused by a fuel issue (ice build-up) that essentially affected both engines simultaneously? I wouldn't think that the apparent simultaneous lack of power rules out fuel issues completely (although I think we can definitely rule out ice as being a factor!)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Yeah, maybe. I was really referring to contamination of fuel with some other matter or impurity. You'd think that kind of situation would probably affect one engine before the other. A comment I saw somewhere said that even if one engine lost power a few seconds before the other, that would have been evident with a visible yaw motion caused by the asymmetric force followed by control surface movement to compensate.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's hard to speculate, especially for us "aviation laymen".

    The only thing I could see is that they lost thrust in both engines.

    I don't think it was a bird strike, as there would have been black smoke out of the engines, which didn't happen. Other than that engine loss in both engines at the very same time is very very rare these days.

    I would also not put it down to Boeing as lot's of Boeings do fly without any issues regardless of the media coverage. But I would rather put it to a maintenance issue at AirIndia or maybe even sabotage / fuel sabotage or a pilot error.

    Pilot error the least likely, as they do fly a lot, do have the experience and don't mistake one for the other or calculate the take off weight wrongly. ( even though there have been calculation errors in this as well, like the Gimli Glider in Canada)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭notAMember


    Alarms are typically silenced on take-off. This is to avoid distracting the pilots.

    The images show both the flaps fully extended, and the landing gear down. This is perfect take-off position.

    Landing gear retraction would usually be started by then, or at least the wheels put into Front-Wheel-up position so it could be retracted. Planes can fly just fine with it down, but it's another pointer to a total power and hydraulic failure that it didn't happen.

    The pilots had no ability to control that plane. The RAT doesn't generate enough power to fly the plane, after a few minutes it can give enough power to bring up controls and do an engine restart sequence. But that only works if they already have enough height to glide.

    There was no bird strike. There was no yaw and as engines are on different fuel lines, I think fuel would be unlikely to impact them both at the same milli-second.

    I don't remember if the pilots gave a mayday, but if they did, they were out of options. Mayday is the last option in aviate, navigate, communicate.

    And hitting a medical college full of students is so tragic also. I think about is how proud my indian colleagues were of their sons and daughters who had worked hard enough to get into med school.

    I lean towards computer issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,831 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Computer issue is something that should never happen, not like this. TBH I would rather consider inadvertent or even intentional human action before considering computer issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    We'd only know after the investigation has been concluded. I suspect technical issues due to bad maintenance or some kind of sabotage.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,165 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Really hope they get to the bottom of this soon, or have some kind of idea. As a nervous flyer, the Max crashes really elevated my anxiety for a time but I eventually got over it. Seeing a Dreamliner drop from the sky on takeoff with no explanation isn't exactly helping. Wish I could only fly Airbus, but not always possible unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Apparently, there was a software bug on the 787 back in 2015 where if the plane's power system was kept continuously running for 248 days, a 32 bit counter would overflow and cause complete failure of all generators at the same time. Unlikely that specific issue is at fault here, but it shows what can happen.

    https://www.engadget.com/2015-05-01-boeing-787-dreamliner-software-bug.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/01/us-aviation-authority-boeing-787-dreamliner-bug-could-cause-loss-of-control

    Amazingly, the FAA when they found out about it, issued a directive that the planes had to be "rebooted" at least once every 120 days until the software fix was ready.

    This reminds me of the software bug that hit the maiden voyage of the ESA's Ariane 5 rocket. Also an integer overflow that caused bth guidance computers to shutdown simultaneously, causing the rocket to go out of control and self destruct.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Fail safe is the key word, mentioned in one of those two articles. The generators going in fail safe mode probably means they will continue to generate a reduced amount of power which could lead to some of the systems powering down but not a catastrophic failure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    You should consider Aer Lingus then, they have Airbus, not Boeing. I've heard of many people preferring Airbus over Boeing and booking with airlnies having Airbusses instead of Boeings. The Americans can be rather lax sometimes in mass production cycles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Cordell


    And some parts of the world are lax in pilot training and airplane maintenance.

    The last western airline fatal crash I remember was the one lost over Pacific which was an Air France Airbus in 2009.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    wow, that's some info…a bit shocking to learn such bug exist(ed??). Completely dangerous and one wonders that nothing more happened with this bug in place. The articles are from 2015, 10 years ago, but who knows if it was fixed on every aircraft..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭✭Dublin Calling


    Here is a another software (update) issue causing the engines to fail on a Airbus A400M just after takeoff.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/business/airbus-knew-of-software-vulnerability-before-a400m-crash-idUSKBN1D81BG/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    would not be unusual to take up for a year. just read India refused an offer of assistance from the UN civil aviation organisation ICAO. Also they didn't publish a list yet which specialists are involved in the investigation process.



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