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Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,131 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Bruno Kahl, President of Germany’s Federal Intelligence Service (BND), has said that Russia is preparing to test the credibility of NATO’s Article 5, adding that German intelligence has concrete evidence of the Kremlin’s preparations for potential aggression against the Alliance.

    Source: Kahl in a podcast for German outlet Table Briefings, as reported by The Times

    Details: The BND chief emphasised that Moscow no longer believes in the reliability of NATO’s collective defence system – particularly Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, which guarantees a joint response in the event of an attack on a member state. He warned that the Kremlin may attempt to test this provision in practice.

    Quote: "We are very sure, and we have intelligence evidence to back this up, that [Russia’s full-scale invasion of] Ukraine is only one step on Russia’s path towards the west." 

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/06/11/7516583/

    This is a major development. It makes me think of how foolish I believe Poland is being. They are massively increasing and improving their military capabilities, with orders for billions worth of planes, tanks, artillery, etc.

    They seem incapable of making the logical leap the baltic states have in realising the best and cheapest form of defence Europe has is Ukraine, and that funding them is a far better use of defence spending than accumulating materiel and waiting for what comes after Ukraine is no more.

    If ever there were a time to realise that now is a united we stand, divided we fall moment. Poland doesn't get it, Germany seems to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Agree. I gave Trump the benefit of the doubt when he was elected. Maybe all the Krasnov stuff was just internet nonsense (and maybe it is) and maybe all those years of the Russians being the bad guys in every American film ever made would resonate with him, the possibility that going hard on Putin would endear him to the hardcore anti-commie US voter and especially that he'd look to take advantage of Putin's weakness by crippling him. That he'd back the winning horse. It became clear after a few weeks that wasn't going to do anything to assist Ukraine and in fact he's done the complete opposite. He's shafted Western trading partners. Gone to diplomatic war with his old allies. Driven a wedge into NATO. Humiliated Zelensky live in front of the entire world's media. Cut aid to Ukraine. And tried to sell Putin's good points to anyone who'll listen to him.

    He's on the wrong side of history and I'm looking forward to it dawning on him before he dies that his reputation is tarnished forever. Thank f**k we only have another few years of the p***k. Hopefully the Democrats and Republicans with a conscience can cripple his ability to wage destruction after the midterms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,156 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


     If he falls it will probably happen fairly suddenly I think, probably some kind of palace coup. 

    Yes very possibly but that could be a long way away yet. You get leaders like Assad and Mugabe who seem to be under all sorts of internal pressure but cling on for years and years…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,381 ✭✭✭Suckler


    I'm looking forward to it dawning on him before he dies that his reputation is tarnished forever.

    I really wish I had your faith.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    How is Assad getting on these days, has he fallen out of a window of his Moscow penthouse yet

    His regime fell apart practically overnight



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭thomil


    I'm going to have to slightly disagree with you there, at least with regards to Ukraine being the best way to defend NATO. It is certainly important to arm Ukraine and help them succeed in taking back their country. However, I can't shake the feeling that Russia is going to test NATO directly regardless, and that test is going to happen in the Baltic states.

    Why do I believe this? Well, Russia is absolutely paranoid about being encircled and not having unimpeded access to the world's oceans or, failing that, at least have a completely unimpeded marine approach to its major ports. All of Russia's current deep-water ports, Murmansk and Severodvinsk on the Atlantic as well as Vladivostok and Petropavlovsk on the Pacific, are icebound for at least part of the year, whilst the other two sea areas they can use to access the open oceans lead through choke points controlled by competitors/hostile powers. That would be the Baltic, where they have to pass through either the Kattegat and deal with Denmark and Sweden, or through the Kiel Canal, which is German, and the Black Sea, with the Bosphorus and Dardanelles, which are controlled by Turkey. This desire far predates Vladimir Putin's reign and dates back to the days of the tsars.

    In the Baltic, Russia, in the shape of the USSR, used to enjoy relatively unimpeded access all the way to the Danish Straits and the Kattegat. The Baltic States were under their control, Kaliningrad was, and still is, a major naval base, and both East Germany and Poland had been brought to heel. However, following the fall of the Iron Curtain, Moscow lost a lot of that control. Germany reunified, Poland couldn't turn away from Russia fast enough and the Baltic states broke away as well. More importantly, they lost the land corridor to Kaliningrad, one of the major fleet bases on the Baltic and the only one that isn't hemmed in by a long an narrow gulf. Even if we leave Putin's longing to restore glory to the Empire/USSR out, this is a major strategic weakness that is extremely hard to swallow for Moscow. That's especially the case these days, given that the 2022 invasion of Ukraine has effectively turned the Baltic into a NATO lake.

    So why the Baltics? Well, they're effectively exposed, at the extreme end of NATO, and relatively weak militarily. At the same time, Russia has a number of advantages in the shape of very short supply lines from one of its major industrial and population centres in the shape of St. Petersburg, as well as its bases in Kaliningrad. More importantly though, they have a partner in Belarus. Lukashenko's regime has, despite being Putin's puppet, been strangely absent from the fight in Ukraine. It has acted as a base for Russian forces but from what I can see, it hasn't sent any of its own forces into the fight, certainly not in large numbers. Now, this could mean that the Belarusian armed forces are in even rougher shape than Russia's, but I believe it is prudent to assume that the armed forces of Belarus are in at least somewhat of a fighting shape.

    Accordingly, my suspicion is that Russia is going to call in a few dozen "favours" from Lukashenko to get him to commit his forces to a push westwards through Lithuania and the Suwalki Corridor towards Kaliningrad to isolate the Baltic states and re-establish an overland supply route with Kaliningrad. That would leave Russia with enough "space" to deal with Latvia and Estonia at its leisure by sending down forces from St. Petersburg. and I suspect that Putin is going to make this move sooner rather than later, because he knows that the longer he waits, the stronger NATO's position in the Baltic States is going to become. Germany recently stood up its 45th Panzer Brigade at the Rudninkai training range in Lithuania, right in the middle of the Suwalki Corridor, and the Bundeswehr expects the unit, the Bundeswehr's only permanently forward-based formation to be fully operational by 2027. I expect Putin to make a move in that direction sometime before that happens, so likely within the next 12-18 months.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,760 ✭✭✭✭josip


    @thomil how do you think Putin/Lukashenko will be able to assemble sufficient forces at the border of one of the Baltics without being noticed?

    Or will the assembling of the forces be 'the test', and if NATO don't relocate a few divisions and squadrons to the Baltics in a timely manner, that will be the sign that Putin needs?

    Which would mean that simply by relocating forces to the Baltics if required NATO/Europe will discourage Putin from trying anything. Knowing that he's going to come off worst in a 1:1 engagement with NATO/Europe.

    Which in turn would lead one to assume, that Putin/Lukashenko also being aware of that in advance, won't waste the time/resources on a pointless 'check'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,156 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Yes but I'm sure a lot of people were expecting the regime to fall pretty sharpish when the rebellion kicked off in 2011, just like a lot of people are expecting discontent over the Ukraine war to bring down Putin…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,644 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Some good news on the exchange of deceased soldiers today. Some 1239 families can get some closure and compensation from the government for their loss. Sound like the other 4800 of this first exchange should be completed and further swaps after that.

    bodies.jpg

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    But fallen it has, and so has Russia itself multiple times in last century alone

    This war is going on for 11 years now and would take longer that that to even reach the Dnipro never mind cross it assuming Russians continue to kill 950+ of their own men (as per nato quote) a day for few square meters here and there



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,644 ✭✭✭brickster69


    The two sides are too far apart on conditions to end the war. Ukraine and it's NATO partners want an unconditional ceasefire which is understandable given the worsening situation on the battlefield and Russia now want's what was announced on June 14th last year.

    No chance Ukraine can accept that given they rejected far better terms in Istanbul 1.0 and the previous offer offered to Nato and the Biden administration which ensured no loss of territory and the removal of Russian forces from Ukraine. How could they possibly accept a far worse offer now ? I suspect once these negotiations fail a new set of conditions will be set and the SMO upgraded if they are rejected.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    LOL… the "SMO"… yeah, wait til we see what happens when Putin gets cross and goes to "war".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    He is trying hard to make the Russians sound all reasonable

    Yet their demands to even start talking about a ceasefire (never mind peace) by now include:

    • dropping all sanctions on Russia (why if the same people tell us they don’t hurt?)
    • withdrawal of all NATO troops from Baltics (why and what does it have to do with Ukraine?)
    • Immediate cessation of aid to Ukraine (why if the same people tell us it doesn’t hurt)

    Putin is not interested in peace nor fantasies like @rogber outlined earlier (no giving up a few fields in back arse of Donbass won’t satisfy the Russians, they want a lot more than that to even begin to talk)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Ukraine did not reject terms because there were no terms agreed or finalised.

    This claim has been posted to the thread and discredited multiple times already.

    The talks had deliberately skirted the question of borders and territory and the thorny issue of sovereignty over both the Crimea and the occupied Donbas regions were to be left to direct negotiations in a mooted summit between Putin and Zelenskiy at a later date.

    https://www.intellinews.com/fresh-evidence-suggests-that-the-april-2022-istanbul-peace-deal-to-end-the-war-in-ukraine-was-stillborn-321468/

    But go ahead, find us a credible non vatnik source which lists these terms, terms which cover territory, sovereignty etc over the disputed regions and an agreed border.

    If you can't it will be positive proof this is nothing more than Russian propaganda and you know it, yet continue to repeat a baseless claim.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭zv2


    Michael Clarke says he can't see Russia fighting into 2026. Maybe this is why they are being so triumphalist now about forcing nato out of the Baltics - all bluff.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Maybe they laying the groundwork to declare victory and try to spin this disaster of a war as a success for domestic Russian consumption

    Whatever, let them tell themselves fantasies, we however don’t have to so readily accept bull 💩 that’s not ground in any reality



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭zv2


    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    re: China

    NYT had a very long article few days ago based on Russian documents they got hold of about FSB 💩 ing themselves about China



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭thomil


    Just did a bit of snooping around the border area on Google Maps. There's a military base and training area just north of Hrodna or Grodno, which is also the HQ of Belarus's Western Command and 6th Guards Mechanised Brigade. The city is just around 30 kilometres away from the border, while the training/base area is less than ten kilometres from Rairgardas border crossing on the border with Lithuania. I can easily see additional units being transferred there under the guise of an exercise. The only real obstacle in that area is the Nemunas or Niemen river, which marks the border and therefore lacks bridges in the area. However, Druskininkai, with its two river crossings, is just five kilometres away from the Rairgardas border crossing on the Lithuanian side. A surprise push north from the Grodno training area might be able to secure the bridges before NATO forces have time to react.

    There's also an airbase near the city of Lida, around 50-60 kilometre south of Rudninkai, where the Germans are setting up their Panzer brigade. The longer approach and more open terrain makes this a less "stealthy" option, as if moving brigade-sized formations can ever be stealthy. Still a thrust, or even just the threat of a thrust, north from Lida could tie down the Bundeswehr units in Rudninkai, which is just north of the border there, rendering them unable to assist with any moves further to the southwest.

    This is just my suspicion as an interested amateur, and it only takes into consideration regular army units, leaving aside any air assault formations or Russian army units. But from my perspective, this seems like the best option to hit Lithuania without giving the game away weeks in advance.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,170 ✭✭✭jmreire


    So, what would you call what Putin's been doing since 2014?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,760 ✭✭✭✭josip




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,760 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Also, even if the US decides to stay out of a Baltic invasion, the neighbouring countries will absolutely get involved. Sweden, Finland and Norway all know they are at risk if solidarity is not shown. Even if that risk is low. The Poles absolutely detest the Russians and for very good reason; they will not be kept out. If Sweden, Norway and Finland commit, Denmark will also commit. I can't imagine the Dutch after MH17 not going to the defense of a NATO partner against Russia. Russia is despised by too many countries to have a reasonable chance of achieving anything in the Baltics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭junkyarddog


    https://bsky.app/profile/specialkhersoncat.bsky.social/post/3lrd7zs5zpk2v

    Russian soldier beats his Russian comrade with an iron pipe.

    The beatings will continue until morale improves!

    What a wonderful country of culture,who wouldn't want to be ruled by them?🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭thomil


    The bridge in question, certainly the one shown in the article, seems to be the one between Sovetsk in Kaliningrad Oblast and Panemunes in Lithuania. I have my doubts that the bridges in Druskininkai got a similar treatment, given that they are completely within Lithuanian territory and connect different parts of that town.

    For what it's worth, there are several spots further west where the tributaries of the Neman could potentially be forded, but I have my doubts that these would be used, as the roads leading there are just too small.

    In general though, I get what you're saying. It wasn't just Switzerland, by the way. Back in Germany, numerous bridges in the area known as the Fulda Gap and in the Kinzig valley were designed to take atomic demolition munitions, essentially nuclear land mines. I only moved into that area ten years after the Iron Curtain came down, but you'd be surprised how many relics of these deployment plans were still present even in the 2000s and early 2010s.

    The big problem both in the Suwalki corridor and the Fulda Gap is how quickly the defending forces could react. An attacker will have the initiative in any attack, especially a surprise attack. I have significant doubts about the Belarusian armed forces ability to pull off the type of lightning attack that would be needed, but then again, it would probably take any armoured spearhead less than an hour from their training area to make it into the town and the bridges. That would probably not even be enough to alert the Lithuanian command staff.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭irishproduce


    But wouldn't NATO intervention need approval by some vote or something so that individual countries could not intervene as a group operating as NATO. Don't get me wrong id hate to see it but if the US didn't "article 5" activation then Russia could argue this is not NATO intervening, rather it's a group of hostile countries. Thoughts?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    To what extent US could block any NATO co-ordinated response is unclear to me. Under Article the level of response provided us up to member states to decide.

    The EU also has a mutual defence clause which could be used to co-ordinate things. Again, the level of response provided us up to member states to decide.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭thomil


    I had a bit of a google around, and from my understanding, The NATO council does not actually get a vote on Article 5. Rather, Article 5 is invoked by the country under threat, which would require the other NATO members to respond and come to that country's aid. The reason the NATO council voted on Article 5 back in 2001 was because it was meant as a show of support for the US in the wake of 9/11. But if an attack on say the Suwalki corridor were to arise, Lithuania could invoke Article 5 on its own.

    In either case, any invocation would only happen after hostilities have already commenced. No military commander worth their salt is going to let their forces be attacked without fighting back.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Laughable people here think America under Trump will follow any NATO articles and obligations or even care, if push came to shove after what we’ve witnessed over the last 6 months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,760 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Russia can argue what they like while they assess the destruction of their entire air capability in the region. NATO will already be well present in any region where Russia or Belarus are purporting to carry out "exercises". Russian buildup in Belarus was noted and monitored from October 2021, 4 months before they got around to invading Ukraine and were unable to make the 2 hours to Kyiv.

    If there is any movement beyond normal towards the Baltic borders, NATO plans of action that have been rehearsed for decades will be put into operation. If there is any incursion beyond the borders of Belarus, the troops on the ground will already know what they will do. They won't need to send a pigeon back to Brussels for orders.

    I would posit and admittedly it's a bit of a stretch, that were troops to attack Lithuania from Belarus, it would very quickly lead to the end of Lukashenko. The majority of Belorussians would like to be rid of Lukashenko. He's only in power through election rigging, control of media and oppression via the state security organisations. As soon as the subset of NATO countries repel the attack, they may decide to continue across the border towards Minsk. They won't need to get to Minsk. Lukashenko will bail for Moscow long before that. He's no Zelensky.

    Post edited by josip on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭thomil


    Just on your last paragraph, not sure if that's aimed at the scenario I outlined earlier but in case it was, I certainly drew that up as the death ride of not just Lukashenko, but Putin. In my eyes, such a move would be akin to the Ardennes offensive of late 1944 and early 1945. A desperate last gamble to wrangle some sort of victory, or at least a defiant last stand from an otherwise ignominious situation. Russia is throwing its last available assets into the meat grinder in Ukraine, and whilst it is capable of still limited gains in the field and still has some working logistics, it is becoming more and more clear that it is pretty much a spent force. Belarus might be in a better material state, but it lacks the deep reserves that Russia started the war with. As far as I'm concerned, an attack on the Suwalki corridor would signal the beginning of the end for the regimes in both countries.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



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