Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Duterte didn't accept charges against him either.

Didn't stop his arrest and deportation to The Hague.

Yes indeed, many parts of Gaza where people are starving are under Israeli control and Hamas doesn't even have a presence there. The UN are saying they are ready to go in with aid right now, fighting or no fighting.

If anyone is interested in the current arrest warrants out for Yoav Gallant and Benjamin Netanyahu (both listed as "at large"), click the link below (sorry, won't display correctly) and click "see more" against either name and you'll see a summary of the charges. Both are charged similarly - summarised here:

1. Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare.
2. The Chamber finds there are reasonable grounds to believe that the crime against humanity of murder was committed.
3. The Chamber finds that the crime against humanity of other inhumane acts was committed
4. The Chamber finds that the crime against humanity of persecution was committed.
5. The Chamber finds that the war crime of intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population of Gaza was committed

https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendants?f%5B0%5D=filter_situations_for_defendants%3A876

https://news.sky.com/story/former-biden-official-matthew-miller-says-he-believes-israel-has-committed-war-crimes-in-gaza-13378081

• It was "without a doubt true that Israel has committed war crimes";

• That Israeli soldiers were not being "held accountable";

• That there were "disagreements all along the way" about how to handle policy;

• And that he "would have wanted to have a better candidate" than Mr Biden for the 2024 election.

I was watching Breaking Points earlier and one of the points made was that part of the Hamas proposal was that they would play no further part in the Government of Gaza, but the US/Israel removed this from the proposal.

Thanks for your reply. I’ll respond directly, not because I expect agreement, but because facts and consistency matter, especially when the stakes are this high. You called my opening "condescending", but I was simply trying to encourage a higher standard of discussion. If that rubbed you the wrong way, so be it, but it doesn’t change the value of maintaining civility, even in disagreement.

As for hate speech, no one is suggesting it’s more important than civilian deaths. But it does matter. Hate speech lays the groundwork for violence, on both sides. If Israelis are chanting racist slogans, I condemn it, as I already said. But when pro-Palestinian marches in the West include chants about bombing Israel, or people make hissing noises mocking gas chambers, and no one calls that out, that’s a moral failure. Consistency in opposing dehumanisation is not a distraction, it’s a necessity.

You also called my point about Hamas rejecting ceasefires 'a lie'. That’s simply incorrect. There have been ceasefire proposals Hamas rejected. Hamas is not some innocent actor seeking peace, they’re the ones who launched this war with a massacre on October 7th. That was not a defensive move or an act of desperation; it was a deliberate, brutal assault on civilians. Ignoring that origin point makes it impossible to talk honestly about what followed.

When you speak of responsibility and genocide, you reduce a complex and tragic conflict to a cartoonishly one-sided narrative. War crimes and disproportionate force should be scrutinised, absolutely, but accusing Israel of "genocide" every time it fights Hamas is both intellectually lazy and morally offensive. It ignores Hamas's strategy of embedding within civilian infrastructure and using human shields. As a supporter of Palestine and Hamas, you can, and should, hold Israel accountable for its conduct. But pretending Hamas bears no responsibility for the suffering in Gaza is dishonest.

Your suggested solution, Israel withdrawing to pre-1948 lines, paying reparations, and forming a single democratic state, isn’t a peace plan; it’s a call for dismantling the state of Israel. That’s not reconciliation, that’s elimination. A solution that denies the Jewish people their right to self-determination is not going to bring justice, it’s going to lead to more conflict. Peace requires compromise, not maximalist fantasies that erase one side’s existence.

Finally, your comparison of Israel to the Holocaust is not just historically inaccurate, it’s morally bankrupt. Equating a defensive war, however ugly, with the industrial extermination of six million Jews is not only offensive, it trivialises genocide itself. You’re free to criticise Israeli policy; I do too, a times. But if your rhetoric rests on Holocaust inversion, then you’ve abandoned serious discussion for propaganda. I’m here for debate, not for distortion.

I’d genuinely suggest taking a bit of time to reflect before responding further. These issues deserve clear thinking, and right now, it feels like your emotions are getting in the way of meaningful dialogue.

I appreciate your desire for honest debate, and I agree, it’s essential we hold ourselves to a higher standard. But I’d respectfully push back on a few things.

Criticising Israel is not automatically support for Hamas, and I haven’t claimed otherwise. What I take issue with is when criticism veers into one-sided narratives that ignore or excuse terrorism, or when Hamas's actions are downplayed or simply swept under the carpet. That’s not the same as legitimate criticism of Israel's policies, which I believe is entirely fair game.

As for your claim that supporting Israel equates to supporting "state terrorism". I think that's an unfair and inflammatory comparison. Governments, including Israel's, should absolutely be held accountable for their actions. But equating support for a state's right to defend itself, with support for every single decision it makes, especially in wartime, oversimplifies a complex situation, I believe.

Well it comes across as if that is what you are doing when you say supporters of Hamas and Palestinians. The people you are responding to in your posts have made it clear they don't support Hamas. With respect it does seem like you are engaging in projection when you identify your own behaviour in others with regard to minimising or excusing the behaviour and policies of the Israeli government.

I agree with you that a state has a right to defend itself, but what it doesn't have a right to do is engage in collective punishment and war crimes such as deliberately withholding aid to civilians. Ignoring or failing to condemn that is hypocritical if you are at the same time admonishing others for having a one sided narrative and playing down hamas terrorism.

because facts and consistency matter

Facts most certainly do matter. Your posts appear to have a lot of difficulty with facts.

One example out of many, you state:

War crimes and disproportionate force should be scrutinised, absolutely, but accusing Israel of "genocide" every time it fights Hamas is both intellectually lazy and morally offensive.

First off, the Genocide is not against Hamas. Hamas are terrorist and combatants. The rules of war allow combatants to kill each other (within reason).

The Genocide and War Crimes are against civilians (see my post regarding the charges against the two Israeli alleged war criminals).

So, on a false premise, you then assert that posts/posters accusing Israel of Genocide as "intellectually and morally offensive".

I find the conclusions in your posts, based on factually incorrect data, and the follow on accusation of others being morally and intellectually offensive as morally and intellectually offensive.

You will have to explain the below

How will Israel staying within its borders destroy Israel?

It will destroy it's illegally annexed territory sure - but the flip side of that is it will be returned to those who legally own it.

Israelis have a right to self determination, as do we all. They don't have a right to take over others people's countries, none of us do.

Your suggested solution, Israel withdrawing to pre-1948 lines, paying reparations, and forming a single democratic state, isn’t a peace plan; it’s a call for dismantling the state of Israel. That’s not reconciliation, that’s elimination. A solution that denies the Jewish people their right to self-determination is not going to bring justice, it’s going to lead to more conflict. Peace requires compromise, not maximalist fantasies that erase one side’s existence.

The brave IDF are busy murdering civilians at food aid stations in this ongoing one way murder spree. They are using helicopters and tanks now so they know exactly who they are shooting at as opposed to indiscriminate bombing. The UN summed it up well.

OPT: Attacks around aid distribution site in Gaza | OHCHR

Deadly attacks on distraught civilians trying to access the paltry amounts of food aid in Gaza, are unconscionable. For a third day running, people were killed around an aid distribution site run by the “Gaza Humanitarian Foundation”. 

Attacks directed against civilians constitute a grave breach of international law, and a war crime.

Palestinians have been presented the grimmest of choices: die from starvation or risk being killed while trying to access the meagre food that is being made available through Israel’s militarized humanitarian assistance mechanism.

The wilful impediment of access to food and other life-sustaining relief supplies for civilians may constitute a war crime. The threat of starvation, together with 20 months of killing of civilians and destruction on a massive scale, repeated forced displacements, intolerable, dehumanizing rhetoric and threats by Israel’s leadership to empty the Strip of its population, also constitute elements of the most serious crimes under international law.

I wish I knew how to multi quote on this version of boards !

That's condescending, suggesting that others need to lift their game, if calling you condescending rubbed you the wrong way, as you say, so be it. (gold standard)

We are way past laying the groundwork for violence regarding Israel, so we can forgive the odd emotional expression, with some exceptions the majority of posts I would suggest are respectful. What we see happening to Israel is a direct consequence of how Israel is conducting itself. Like Hitler in WW11 it led to Germany being bombed. That wasn't a moral failure on behalf of the allied forces and if it takes bombing Israel to stop their genocide then we should start discussing that. Calling out what Israel is doing, isn't dehumanising Israeli people, it's pointing out facts.

Hamas didn't reject a ceasefire, they agreed a ceasefire, Israel broke it. What Israel is asking for now is not a ceasefire, its a temporary pause in the genocide and Israel will most likely break that also. Will you address this point, Israel broke the last ceasefire, when you get that the rest makes perfect sense.(gold standard)

What happened on Oct7 was not a massacre, what Israel is doing is a massacre. For the thousand time this didn't start on 7th Oct, that event was one in a long series of events. Ignoring that original point makes it impossible to talk honestly about what followed. (gold standard) What Israel did next is inexcusable. I agree Hamas are terrorists, but so is Israel, don't you agree ?

Israel is not fighting Hamas, Israel is fighting the people of Palestine, all the people. Not seeing that is intellectually lazy and morally offensive, there you go again, with your gold standard posting, accusing anyone that is against Israel as being a Hamas supporter. Hamas is not responsible for what Israel are doing to Palestinian people, stop victim blaming. If Israel wanted to get rid of Hamas, then it shouldn't have funded them in efforts to prevent a single state solution.

I'm not calling for the Israel state to be dismantled, because, it's not the state of Israel. The 1948 borders are the state of Israel, the rest is stolen occupied lands. They have flattened a neighbouring country, so yes, they should pay for all the damage. Self-determination is not stealing all your neighbour's country. The only side that's having its existence erased is Palestine, Israel is under no threat.

The herding of Palestinians into camps of concentration (an Israeli term), the starving of those people sounds like the start of genocide. Against all international pressure, Israel still refuses to let the aide in. Many Israelis are descendants of holocaust survivors, a strange twist of faith to see history on the verge of repeating itself. Time will tell if Israel does pull back, hopefully international, and domestic pressure will force this, but I doubt there is anything the Palestinian people can do to stop this genocide/holocaust.

I’d genuinely suggest taking a bit of time to reflect before responding further. These issues deserve clear thinking, and right now, it feels like your emotions are getting in the way of meaningful dialogue. (gold standard)

Well using your powerful skills of deduction on yourself, what does that tell us all you support?

and just to add - is there a single threads or post demonising Israel for anything else other than blowing up and starving civilians / slandering anyone who speaks out? Maybe it's the actions of the country rather than the country itself that people are criticizing.