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Immigration and Ireland - MEGATHREAD *Mod Note Added 14/08/25*

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    This report from the ESRI this week isn't getting the MSM coverage it deserves because it's scary…very scary.

    It was discussed at length on morning Ireland yesterday. Even if our population doesn’t grow it’s a massive problem, we have an aging population who will get sick more often.

    We need builders, nurses and doctors to solve it.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭_Puma_


    The question isn't "if" total service collapse happens.

    The question is what happens after total service collapse…

    Its going to make the economic collapse of the state in the late 00s look tame is comparison.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭H_Lime


    This is of course true we need qualified workers able to put their shoulders to the wheel we push. We need them to contribute to the workforce and integrate into Irish Society.

    But the hordes of illegal immigrant chancers coming here under false pretenses as refuguees are as far removed from that as is imaginable. They will be and will remain a tax burden for the workers of this country forevermore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭jackboy


    This is not going to be solved by expanding capacity in the future. Many will refuse to believe this but assisted dying will become legal here in the future and the criteria then loosened over time so this becomes very common.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    At least people are now seeing the link between capacity issues and immigration. Up until a year ago you’d have people saying ‘immigrants are here to do the jobs the Irish don’t want to do’ or ‘the Irish went everywhere’.
    The discussion is maturing a little bit, albeit belatedly.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    What happens the countries whose doctors, nurses and builders we take? Are we entitled to better medical care than them because we're a wealthier country?

    What about the carbon generated by moving people half way around the globe (is it 1000 people come here a week from India?), and then having them fly home to visit relatives annually?

    If we're saying that society can't function unless we have a continually growing population, then there's a serious problem with society.

    If we're worried about birth rates, how about stop driving up house prices through excessive immigration (let's be honest, it's way more than builders, doctors and nurses we're taking in) which have people locked into their parents' homes until into their 30s. Or let's address high creche rates too.

    There's issues being faced, for sure. But there's more than one way to address them. Why not try build a sustainable society? Unfortunately your view of the rest of the world is very akin to the colonial view from 100+ years ago - other countries only exist so we can pilfer their natural resources and keep ourselves rich in the doing.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    I said we needed them. That’s all.

    You’ve filled in a lot of blanks with your bias.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    "We need them - that's all"

    I mean, that pretty much typifies the selfishness I'm talking about there. And without an attempt to actually address the points I raised (bar "You’ve filled in a lot of blanks with your bias" - a meaningless comment)

    There's other issues too of course. Societal is a key one - how do we deal with the transition to a more Islamic society for example? This is inevitable if we reduce society to pure population numbers - Islamic cultures have the highest birth rates. There's a strong link between Islam and homophobia for example - are you ok with that, or how do you propose we address it?

    The excellent Simon Reeve currently has a three-part documentary on Scandinavia showing on BBC. The third part (Sunday at 9pm) has him in Sweden and Denmark, looking at (among other things) the rise of the immigrant gang wars in Sweden.

    I think it should be compulsory viewing for all on this thread to be honest.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Again, you haven’t even asked me where I think we shouldn’t them before embarking on a bizarre tirade.

    I find this fascinating. You’ve decided what I think and are arguing with that before I’ve even expressed an opinion.

    You’ve even parsed the 2 sentences “I said we need them. That’s all” into one “we need them- that’s all” to misrepresent what I said. I am genuinely curious if you even did this consciously or you’re so intent on arguing with what you think I’m saying, you didn’t stop to think.

    I’m not addressing the points you made, because you’re arguing with things I didn’t say. I’m happy to debate the things I said

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Well, you can debate the things I said too.

    You can't just make a point, and when someone challenges say "I said we need them. That's all." That's not how debate works.

    I posed a couple of specific questions to you -

    "What happens the countries whose doctors, nurses and builders we take? Are we entitled to better medical care than them because we're a wealthier country?

    What about the carbon generated by moving people half way around the globe (is it 1000 people come here a week from India?), and then having them fly home to visit relatives annually?"

    You haven't answered those points yet. Do you want to now?

    (The idea that parsing "I said we need them. That’s all” into “we need them- that’s all” misrepresents you is laughable btw)



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    (The idea that parsing "I said we need them. That’s all” into “we need them- that’s all” misrepresents you is laughable btw)

    It’s only laughable if you don’t understand how the English language works. You’ve changed the entire meaning of what I said.

    You’ve said a lot of things, including accusing me of colonialism, based on the above misinterpretation. So no, I won’t debate those individual points.

    To expand, we need more nurses, doctors and construction workers. I would like to see the government plan for that. I think one of the main ways to solve the gap is attract Irish emigrants home again. Yes, some immigrants will be needed, but they can’t solve it all.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    It grinds me a little though when people pose these kinds of questions. We dont "take" doctors from foreign countries, we don't pluck them up and drag them here. They come here of their own will and while the effects of brain drain are obviously bad for their homelands, you have the competing problem that the only likely alternative is the coercive suppression of a person's ability to leave their own country in circumstances where the socioeconomic or political conditions just aren't going to improve. To make them improve would require a lot of things to happen — like immense foreign aid, ending interference in these countries by foreign powers like the US / China / Russia and the rebalancing and re-distribution of the global economy to take away the dominance of the Global North.

    But nobody really wants that, in a sincere way, people want the world to remain unfair so long as it's tipped in their favour — hence there will always be a demand from those on the other side to wade across to where they get a better chance to prosper.

    As for the carbon footprint point, again this is not some creation of immigration. Indeed, the climate is (and will increasingly be) a driver of migration in the first place. Any meaningful argument on it all requires also asking ourselves whether Irish people are really willing to forego their multiple continental holidays a year and their jaunts to America, Australia, Dubai, Thailand etc — not to mention the vast emissions across the entire strata of the Western socioeconomic model that provide our comforts, medicines, technology and the resources to power our economy.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    So the problem with this is you've just re-stated your point without addressing mine. That's not debating.

    Can I ask you a third time -

    "What happens the countries whose doctors, nurses and builders we take? Are we entitled to better medical care than them because we're a wealthier country?

    What about the carbon generated by moving people half way around the globe (is it 1000 people come here a week from India?), and then having them fly home to visit relatives annually?"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    We do take them though. First off, there's companies who specialise in hiring foreign labour to relocate here. The bit that "We don't pluck them up and drag them here" is just reductio ad absurdem - an extreme position no-one's arguing. Secondly, up until maybe 30 years ago, there'd be work permit issues which would mean you couldn't just rock up in a country and work there. Now we're happy to take cheap or skilled foreign labour. And pretty much any pro-immigration argument I've seen fails to take any account of that.

    I think foreign aid has largely been shown to be ineffective in terms of developing economies btw. Immigration aids the imbalancing of the global economy, so if you're in favour of rebalancing it, then cutting down on immigration is a big part of it.

    Carbon footprint is a factor of lots of things, sure. (I never said it was a creation of immigration). I've already made the point earlier on the thread that Irish people need to forego their jaunts to America, Australia, etc. But we need to factor in lots of things, pretty much all at the same time, and one of the fastest-increasing sources of carbon is aviation, with record numbers of flights taking place, and going further.

    So if we're to address that factor - and we do have to - then halting long-distance mass immigration is essential.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    An enployee has to rent or buy, they cant live here otherwise.

    Everyone agrees that we want to house all irish people, of course we do.

    My point is that if you block non-irish workers from working in the country, MNCs based here will move out of the country, taking a lot of irish workers with them.

    The solutuon is to build more homes, so that everyone working and contributing in Ireland has a home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    He said it didn't get the attention it deserves not that it's getting no reporting. Why would you blatantly miss quote him. And he's right you know. Times are bad now but far far worse lay ahead.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    It got the attention it deserved. A big segment on several shows. You can’t hide behind that media bias nonsense.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    Well there's reductio ad absurdem and there's just plain old hyperbole and theatrics — and your original question you posed is based precisely on those. We don't "take" any doctors — they make conscious choices to go somewhere else and there are a plethora of other places they could choose to go as medical professionals. Australia doesn't "take" our own young people away, with all their skills and talent — our young people go to Australia because they choose to do so and as of yet we haven't seen fit to prohibit or punish this freedom of choice.

    You talk about the last 30 thirty years. What else has happened in the last 30 years? Well — for a start — I posted a stat on here recently showing that 13.6% of the Irish working age population had a third level qualification in 1991. It's now over 50% — more than triple what it was then. The phenomenon of cheap migrant labour is therefore not merely a simple result of the fact that migration exists and travel is safer and easier than ever — it's also a symptom of a domestically-driven demand by Irish people themselves (with a good education system to enable them) to aim for jobs requiring higher qualifications — thus leaving gaps in the labour force that are no longer filled as readily by Irish workers but foreign ones who — sadly — are indeed easier to exploit.

    And finally back to your point on climate change. Well, we already did what you say. Covid lockdowns and the heavy and internationally aligned restriction of global travel was the most effective anti-migration policy on a pan-Western level we have ever seen and perhaps will ever see. Clamp down on travel — nobody leaves, nobody enters (unless our of necessity) — and Ireland is saved from the great apocalypse of migration nightmare while also tackling climate change. Good luck selling that one to the Right!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Strange it was kept from the rte news app, despite it featuring on some shows.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    So the problem with this is you've just re-stated your point without addressing mine. That's not debating.

    I didn’t re state my point. I made it for the first time.

    You filling in my side of the argument, although amusing, isn’t debating either.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I didn't fill in your side of the argument. I'm still waiting to hear it.

    Can I ask you for a fourth time -

    "What happens the countries whose doctors, nurses and builders we take? Are we entitled to better medical care than them because we're a wealthier country?

    What about the carbon generated by moving people half way around the globe (is it 1000 people come here a week from India?), and then having them fly home to visit relatives annually?"



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    I never said we should take other peoples doctors and nurses. You started arguing with that before I even expressed an opinion on where we find doctors and nurses.

    That’s filling in my side of the argument

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I think we very much drive immigration from poorer countries though - as Australia does from here. It targets certain areas (the Gardaí for example) and drives emigration that way. We drive emigration the same way.

    Yes, there's lots more people with qualifications. So what? A related problem is companies use migration to push wage prices down (as per the Central Bank article linked recently on thread) - if they didn't have access to such cheap labour, they'd have to pay better wages to others (basic demand and supply economics), and if they needed people badly enough, they'd find them. We'd end up with a much more equitable society as a result too.

    And on covid - yes, people weren't happy with it. It actually was one of the best things for carbon emissions to ever happen, mind. But this is a thread on an internet discussion. I think you have to able to acknowledge that emigration is very carbon intensive, and if we want to deal with climate change - which we do; far more than we want to deal with not having enough doctors in future - then we're going to have to pull out all the stops on it.

    You don't have to believe that'll happen - I don't, for example - but I don't think you can argue for a pro migration stance if you have any understanding of climate change.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,500 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    You said "We need builders, nurses and doctors to solve it."

    You're saying this in the context of a generally pro-migration view on this thread.

    So where do you see doctors and nurses from if you don't think they're going to come from other countries?

    You may have not said the exact words "We should take other people's doctors and nurses" - but your viewpoint across the thread (and you're not alone in that in fairness) is very much that we should.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,409 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    So just to be clear you are annoyed that this NGOs regular report (predicting future needs for 2040) on this topic isn't getting sufficient mainstream media coverage, despite being on the main current affairs programs for two major national radio broadcast programmes the morning of it's release?

    Most self proclaimed free speech absolutists are giant big whiny snowflakes!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,409 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Even those posters with an anti immigrant voice have stated they want doctors and nurses to migrate here.

    Is this a controversial opinion?

    Most self proclaimed free speech absolutists are giant big whiny snowflakes!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    People are already aware of the link.

    You need immigration to support the growing aging population, we will need more healthcare workers and so forth.

    The workforce also needs to expand to replace the retiring workers and also to pay all of the pensions for the over 65s, which will naturally become the largest population group in the state.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,998 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    It’s absolutely amazing how you cannot resist filling in my part of the debate. Even after I pointed it out. It’s a fascinating study of deeply held bias.

    I did say some immigrants are needed to fill the gaps, some can be filled by returning migrants. But it would be great if we incentivised these careers and stopped more trained nurses and doctors leaving. The conditions for junior nurses and doctors in this country is a disgrace. Needs to be fixed first.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    I'm not sure why you simply dismiss the idea of people having more third level qualifications as a "so what" thing. If you have a relatively good education system, you will produce workers who will aspire increasingly to higher paying roles. You can pay baristas whatever you want, but you will never be able to pay them as much as people who are providing specialised services requiring intensive training and qualifications. So people will veer for those jobs because they are perceived to offer better prosperity. In this scenario, it becomes increasingly difficult to find native workers to work in lesser qualified jobs because they are gravitating towards the more qualified jobs.

    Then the other issue is that these workers' skills are transferable to other English speaking economies (and beyond) where there is money to be made and fun to be had — ie, the joys of being young, free and living in big cities or under constant blue skies. They leave and they leave gaps behind.

    This is part of the reason why immigration happens and why it has increased. People get so caught up in thinking that its all some big Lefty design when it's the result of hundreds of millions of individual choices by people themselves.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Inventivise the careers for Irish or anyone doctor or nurse that arrives here? Because if it's for everyone then you'll just introduce more competition from abroad. The good old western brain drain. Our gain is some poor 3rd world countries loss.



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