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How did Israel get so much influence? How can this be changed or overcome?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I don't watch Nazi propaganda films :)

    I do watch documentaries now and then though for educational reasons more than fun ..think a lot of people do .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,649 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    It’s not even in question that if someone shares content on social media, they are responsible for its contents. Having said that, I don’t believe Lineker knowingly shared the content because of the association; as you said earlier it’s an association very few would be aware of (apart from those people who are intentionally aware of it’s connotations, and those people who are the target), which is why I believe that those people who wanted to imply that Lineker was a rabid extremist had all the evidence they needed, whereas Lineker has never struck me as either an extremist, or being all that tuned-in to begin with (there’s no polite way to say he’s a bit dim, but his heart is in the right place).

    What Lineker is undoubtedly aware of, is his employers social media policy, and I’m certain there’s a piece in it that makes it explicitly clear his contributions on social media are a reflection of his employers values and he should not post anything which has the potential to damage his employers reputation (as low a reputation as his employer has already given the numerous scandals, but that’s beside the point), and so really he was left with little choice but to resign before he was dismissed, as I’m not sure there was any coming back from that one once the association was made that Gary is an anti-Semite. I personally don’t imagine he is, but Gary would be all too familiar with the properties of shìt - it tends to stick:

    https://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/lineker-admits-to-****-himself-literally-against-ireland-at-italia-90-12833



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    The Nazis called Jewish people rats because 1) they saw them as sub human and 2) it’s dehumanising and psychologically aids cruelty and atrocities against other humans. Much easier to kill vermin and not lose sleep than a mother and child. (Not my thinking before someone blows a gasket)

    He should have apologised and reposted minus the rat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,159 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yeah, the use of a rat in nazi symbolism would be new to me also although I accept Linekar and the Jewish community would be more aware. It's actions like this that teach people like me the old nazi symbols that I wouldn't be used to so at least they come with that positive



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,531 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Very surprised people are unaware of the link between Jewish people and rats in anti semitic propaganda. It's all to do with Nazis viewing them as vermin. It's a pretty well known fact.

    The first graphic novel to ever win a Pulitzer prize was 'Maus', in which Jews are portrayed as mice for similar reasons.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,649 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I don’t think it’s surprising at all as most people simply aren’t aware of it’s use in that context, they may be aware of the Holocaust and so on, but not the propaganda which had been very effective at the time. Similarly to modern times where it’s used by certain people to portray immigrants as undesirable and a threat to society and social order and a nation’s security - the type who bellyache about 1984 without ever having read it, let alone having any knowledge of Animal Farm (or the context in which those books were written), and certainly no knowledge of Maus!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,640 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    I first became aware of the rat symbol through 'Inglourious Basterds' the Tarantino film, Chrtoph Waltz's opening scene compares the Jews hiding under the floorboards to rats.

    I'd find is strange that he didn't realise the connection but I definitely don't think that the BBC should stop working with him. He's an independent contractor who was stepping away from MOTD but was meant to do the FA Cup and World Cup coverage next year.

    As to people who say that he shouldn't have an opinion or shouldn't air his opinions, well that's just nonsensical. He wasn't doing it in-between matches on MOTD, it's his personal Twitter account and he's not a political correspondent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,640 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    I was recently in Indonesia and at a Hindu temple there were swastikas' symbols throughout it. My partner was shocked as she had no idea of the original meaning behind it before it was stolen and tarnished by the Nazis.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,033 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,159 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Never saw that movie. The BBC don't want to draw the hate and ire of the very large British Jewish community so I think it's understandable they want to cut ties with him

    I assume you're familiar with the Upminster bridge underground station in London then? Something similar there



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,649 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I's possible many don't know because a lot of that type of imagery is banned ,or quickly removed.

    And especially in Germany where you can be convicted for disseminating anything considered antisemitic ..

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/germanys-laws-antisemitic-hate-speech-nazi-propaganda-holocaust-denial/&ved=2ahUKEwiGh5-c5bSNAxVHXUEAHbQREvQQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1CD7NP0Zzbq1Szns4twV7I

    I know from watching The Rise of the Nazi's and ,( this will date me 🙈,) The World at War and the like .

    It's ronic and completely warped that one of the reasons Germany and other countries are still supporting Israel because of what they suffered and now their government is behaving just as viciously and with criminal intent towards the Palestinians .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭thereiver


    Theres 1000,s of jews in influential jobs in the media journalism and local politics in every state.

    https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-israel-lobby-and-why-is-it-so-anxious-240334

    If a politican criticizes israel for genocide and mass starvation bombing of civilians he will be seen as anti semitic and they,ll lose the jewish vote.Its only in the last few weeks that governments of some countrys have proposed trade sanctions or reduced trade with israel due to the total blockade of all food aid to gaza .

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crk2264nrn2o

    thousands of children will die in the next few days unless they get food .people are going to die of starvation .

    the jewish lobby in american politics is never going to disappear or lose influence .There are millions of jews mostly living in american citys .Democrats have always depended on the jewish vote to get elected .israel has an extreme right wing government .The only hope for starvation and the bombing of civilians in gaza to end is if eu countrys propose serious trade sanctions that will hurt the economy and limit the sale of arms to israel

    we had genocide in world war 2 against the jewish people i never thought i,d see another genoicide against another racial group and the bombing and deliberate starvation of civilians as an act of war. in the 70,s the ira set off bombs in britain but we did not see the british army killing catholic civilians .1000,s of civilans are being killed and hospitals are being bombed in gaza with the support of the american government. Meanwhile hamas are safe as they can hide in the network of underground tunnels

    Post edited by thereiver on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,159 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Fair enough, significant minority though, 5th largest population in the world after Israel, USA, France and Canada I think

    Of course most people didn't know, that's why it had to be explained in news broadcasts. It's hugely possible that this was by design as you say to stop those atrocities happening again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,069 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    History repeating itself. From Maus, 1972.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭hawley


    Yep. They're not doing anything concrete against Israel. It's all only optics because Western governments are under pressure. Putting sanctions on people or companies that are not engaged in any business outside of Israel is more nonsense. They're taking zero action against the state of Israel.

    Communication was the greatest fatality



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭hawley


    The man who fired Lineker is Jewish. I'm sure that it played some part in it. Not every Jew is attached to Israel, so can't definitively say it did.

    Communication was the greatest fatality



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,159 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The heritage or religion of the man who fired him certainly had some part to play in it. You'd be fairly hard pressed to find a Jew unattached to Israel and who wouldn't take offence for something like that



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,033 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Lineker has been a marked man for some time now. I didn't see the tweet so I cannot comment on it specifically but I'd say the BBC have wanted an excuse to get rid of him ever since he spoke out about the vile Suella Braverman. When an actual holocaust survivor tells you you're going too far, most people would hesitate:

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭Hoboo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,275 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Typically villainy.

    Your mileage on that definition may vary



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭standardg60


    I was going to say the exact same thing in relation to the interview posted a couple of pages back. The similarities in the reduction of people to sub human level and worthy of mass control, movement and random extermination are bizarre to say the least.

    It was clear the Israeli politician couldn't care less about any Palestinians, he viewed them all the same, no different to the Nazis.

    This isn't a case of the abused becoming the abusers, it is abusers using the abused to excuse their own entirely self established importance and dismissal of other humans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,073 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,372 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    At last a Jew who experienced Genocide now calling out Israeli Genocide. The lads on this thread who deny that what is happening in Gaza is Genocide need to watch this. This man is calling it out and explaining it loud and clear -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxLtxX7kPcU&ab_channel=DoubleDownNews



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,079 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    To be fair, there have been plenty Jewish people who have stood up against what their country is doing to the Palestinians. Plenty who haven't obviously, and no shortage of those who have applauded their leaders and military but there have been those who have demonstrated that they have strong morals.

    There are Jewish people who have advocated at the border crossings that aid should be let through, there have been Jews who have refused subscription and been jailed for doing so and there have been those who have taken the "Fake Jew" title hurled at them as an insult and categorically refuted the accusation it carries.

    Norman Finklestein is probably the most vocal and notorious Jewish voice against the actions of Israel, I can only imagine the abuse he has received both directly and indirectly over the years. Noam Chomsky, Miriam Margoyles are two more.

    One of the negatives about Israels actions is that it does inevitably lead to hatred being expressed against some Jewish people who do not deserve it. The radical zionists and fascists within the Jewish family are harming their own people as they profess to be defending them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,079 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I saw Marco Rubio at a House committee hearing where he was defending the revoking of thousands of Visas since the administration came in to power 4 months ago.

    It got me thinking about how did they know which people to chase down and identify and look to expel and I started looking in to it a little bit. I came across an article about this organisation.

    Canary Mission

    This is quite chilling. It allows both the reporting of and the identification of people considered harmful to the Jewish/Zionism ideals. Looking at the site, I don't think it is an accident that it is so well set up to allow for the identification of people in every state of the US. This is probably intended to serve as a warning to people who may speak up as much as to simply identify who to target.

    Many of the people listed are identified as being Jew Haters or Hamas supporters frequently for nothing more than expressing concern for the people of Palestine.

    While 1000's of visas have been revoked, and apparently the Canary mission is communicating with the state Dept to get people expelled, I think the fact that your name and picture could be listed here in this manner simply because you went to a rally is really very chilling. And that is the purpose, this is to serve as a warning to people to keep their mouths shut This is McCarthyism to the core! In the so called "Land of the Free".

    Can you imagine the reaction if there was a similar site that identified genocide apologists and posted pictures of people who posted celebratory comments or messages to Israel for their actions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,575 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    Stomach-churning genocide going on in Gaza today and the British national broadcaster on their 6pm news tonight had as their top 3 headline stories

    1. Fuel allowance for pensioners
    2. Security of Marks and Spencer computers
    3. Rights of wild campers.

    Not a mention of aid being blocked from starving children.

    Tells you all you need to know about priorities at the BBC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,079 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Apparently they had a piece on last Saturdays evening news about some new cycle paths in london but didn't cover the impact that half a million people had marched in the city for Palestine that day.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,834 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    You may find it surprising, however, A. Few people are that knowledgeable of nazi propaganda and B. few people have even heard of 'Maus'.

    As a matter of course, I would doubt that the average Joe (who I'd wager would be blissfully unaware of propaganda from the 1930's and of graphic novels in general) would make the connection between rats/mice and Jews in the context of bog standard antisemitic slurs.



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