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Why do people drive unnecessarily large cars (AKA "SUVS")?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,695 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I think my initial reaction was the one intended by the originator of the image.

    The small vulnerable child alone on a pedestrian crossing looks scary.

    Anyway, sorry you are bowing out it wasn't my intention to upset you.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Might make the vulnerable road user more visible to other road users. So yes, lights will reduce the risk.

    I thought that would be obvious to anyone with more than one brain cell. It’s the whole backbone of the EU Introduction of DRL’s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    The "Be Lit, Be Seen" Irish Cycling Campaign certainly seemed to think they are important….

    Or did you take them up on their "Magic lights" also?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,907 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Lights would be more beneficial than wearing a yellow bib. However, neither will be that much use to a driver whose face is looking at social media rather than the road ahead or to someone tailgaiting.

    Either way, what is the relevance to vehicles with higher bonnets?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    However, neither will be that much use to a driver whose face is looking at social media rather than the road ahead or to someone tailgaiting.

    Neither of which are exclusive to SUV drivers.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,907 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I didn't say it was. In fact, I even included the comment

    Either way, what is the relevance to vehicles with higher bonnets?

    However, if I were to be involved in a collision with a moving vehicle whilst out walking or cycling, for my own safety, I'd much rather that it did not have a high bonnet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    I'd rather not be hit at all.

    There are far more important/integral parameters that would affect the outcome - speed/angle/braking being applied etc. Driver competence is far more important.

    The bonnet height difference between a saloon and average SUV's are minimal.

    image.png image.png

    This nonsensical argument could be ridiculously drawn out "I'd rather be hit by an SUV than a Ford Transit to I'd rather be hit by a Ford Transit than a Fuel truck" but to what end?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,907 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Obviously I'd rather not be involved in a collision.
    However, whilst driver competence is a strong reason why a collision occurs, research has shown that an important factor in the outcome is the height of the bonnet in frontal collisions so whilst you might think of it as a nonsensical argument, the facts are clear!



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    I know if I was to be in a Collision, I would rather it be with another car like my own, not an SUV. The engine block of an SUV appears right beside my head



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    However, whilst driver competence is a strong reason why a collision occurs, research has shown that an important factor in the outcome is the height of the bonnet in frontal collisions so whilst you might think of it as a nonsensical argument, the facts are clear!

    I certainly don't think it's nonsense; If the same collision were to occur with a cyclist (speed/impact location/braking being applied at same time/reaction of the person struck/action of the cyclist/pedestrian etc. etc.) I am sure the SUV would have greater impact. But accidents by their nature do not happen in these strictly identical ways. The same argument could be applied comparing a Van to an SUV/ Van to a truck/ rigid-artic's etc. etc., again, to what end?

    Driver competence coupled with pedestrian & cyclist infrastructure are far more integral and important to safety.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    let's say bull bars were shown to double the chance of child fatality in an impact with a child; anyone who was opposing putting controls on them because 'driver behaviour is more important' would probably be laughed at.

    or anyone saying 'they're good because consumer choice is good'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    "Let's say" doing an awful lot of heavy lifting there to conveniently "Double" the child fatalities.

    I'll ask again; with all the 'what if's' and 'Let's say' - to what end is the argument here?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's quite simple; all other things being equal, the research we have to hand suggests kids are 82% more likely to die if struck by an SUV than by a 'normal' car.

    but people keep bringing up the 'driver competence is more important' point - which does not address the extra danger seemingly imposed by SUVs.

    but if driver competence is something we should be talking about, this is not good reading:

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5599441/

    TL:DR - drivers of SUVs were significantly more likely to exhibit behaviours of bad driving than non-SUV drivers (and the study is from Austria, not the states, lest the argument about the definition of an SUV crops up).

    i don't know whether that's causation or correlation; but if the study is accurate - it means that either bad drivers buy SUVs (a scary enough thought if you consider that would mean that bad drivers are buying more dangerous cars); or driving an SUV makes drivers worse.

    maybe it's the psychology of driving a beefier car; false sense of security, maybe, but at each of the three locations studied, each of the three markers of poor driving were worse in SUV drivers; not a single 'anomaly' where the 'normal' car drivers behaved worse on average.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    But my unanswered point remains - to what end?

    A pedestrian cyclist will fare better between a car and a truck / a van & a truck etc. etc. They also mention the study reflects light trucks and 4x4's.

    As for the masculinizing affect an SUV has on female drivers; what do you propose to do…

    The study summary is the most apt:

    From a public health point of view, awareness campaigns specifically targeting drivers of SUVs and tailored also to female drivers should be designed and implemented. 

    and

    In contrast, if risk-taking behavior is the main factor checking such cars more frequently by the police would be a more appropriate response

    Driver competence, enforcement of rules of the road and improvement of cycling/pedestrian infrastructure is more important.

    This whole thread is a joke shop - "I don't like SUV's" tenuously masquerading as safety & environmental "concerns". Curtain twitching at it's finest.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you can accuse me of curtain twitching all you want. i haven't accused you - and have avoided doing so - of base motives, but i guess all is fair in love an war, eh?

    SUVs are more dangerous. says the research.

    SUVs are driven more dangerously. says the research.

    but my concern about that is 'curtain twitching'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Looks like there's about a 10cm difference between the two suv/saloon images you have shown here?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    In contrast, if risk-taking behavior is the main factor checking such cars more frequently by the police would be a more appropriate response

    that was one of the pull quotes you liked the look of - (my emphasis) - so you agree with their sentiment that SUV drivers should be policed more rigorously than saloon car drivers?

    FWIW, despite the main gist of the paper being about measuring the 'SUV effect' and how it differs between men and women, it showed the poor behaviour was worse on all three markers, for men, in SUVs. the biggest relative difference being mobile phone use; 2.9% for saloon car drivers and 5.2% for SUV drivers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,337 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think if you're collecting penality points a 500hp massive SUV is not wise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Am I the only one wondering who the hell paid for such “research”

    This is not science



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Less on the bonnet; Roof avg. about 10cm. Avg Max 17cm - Avg min 50cm; from a few similar models of each I quickly looked at (mondeo/passat/A4&8 sedan types - Qashqai/Tucson/ etc.). A bigger SUV like a Sante Fe V sedan would be about 10cm at the front.

    image.png

    Bonnet height for people carriers and SUV's were similar again; but nothing said about those for some reason.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    SUVs are more dangerous. says the research.

    SUVs are driven more dangerously. says the research.

    Said the research that also mentioned light vans & trucks.

    But, I ask again, what's the solution you are proposing then?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the driver behaviour one? it's in the article.

    Open access funding provided by Medical University of Vienna.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    that was one of the pull quotes you liked the look of -

    The same way you chose to highlight pulled quotes you "liked the look of" without really reflecting on the conclusion, which you don't like the look of.

    so you agree with their sentiment that SUV drivers should be policed more rigorously than saloon car drivers?

    Yes; I've no issue with full enforcement of rules of the road; if SUV drivers are found to be breaking them more frequently; they'll simply find themselves being checked more frequently.

    FWIW, despite the main gist of the paper being about measuring the 'SUV effect' and how it differs between men and women, it showed the poor behaviour was worse on all three markers, for men, in SUVs. the biggest relative difference being mobile phone use; 2.9% for saloon car drivers and 5.2% for SUV drivers.

    As above; enforce the rules of the road and it will affect driver competence. Otherwise, what's your solution here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    According to the research: "The design of these vehicles, particularly their higher front-ends, significantly elevates the risk. A mere 10 centimetre increase in front-end height can elevate the risk of pedestrian death by 22%, with impacts more likely occurring at critical injury points like the chest or head"



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    what am i proposing? good question. there's no easy answer.

    i'd certainly like to see fewer oversized SUVs in urban areas, which is where they're most likely to be problematic. someone else suggested a stricter licencing system, which runs aground against the same problem any suggested solution would, which is how to define the difference between 'standard' and 'non-standard' cars.

    no SUVs within 200m of a school at dropoff/pickup time (if that SUV definition could be agreed), maybe? given that many are more difficult to see children out of, coupled with them being more dangerous in such a collision, seems fair - many schools already have tried to create exclusion zones regarding car parking in general in this regard.

    motor tax on private vehicles escalating with height could be more easy to define.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Why just SUV's though? People carriers are similar bonnet heights - Vans / trucks etc. etc.

    Families are turning to ford tourneo type vans now due to space and social life requirements; are they out too?

    Sports cars are more likely to be involved in accidents; no sports cars near schools now?

    Addressing driver competence is a far more realistic answer.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the 'tax on height' option would neatly sidestep how to define an SUV.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,864 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Sports cars are more likely to be involved in accidents

    source?

    and are those 'accidents' more likely to be fatal or injurious to bystanders, or the occupants of the cars in question? are the cars in question inherently more dangerous to pedestrians in a like-for-like collision?

    if they are involved in more collisions, i'd bet my bottom dollar that it's down to how they're driven; but 'sports cars are driven dangerously' says nothing about the debate about whether SUVs aare more dangerous by their design or not.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Which is not addressing anything in reality.

    It's a completely insincere argument.



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