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ARE YOU BORN AGAIN???

  • 25-02-2025 11:19PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49


    Hi guys,

    In John 3:3, Jesus said

    Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”


    I am interested to hear what people think about this verse?
    Do you believe you are Born again when you are Christened as a baby?
    or When you make your confirmation?
    Or When you believe in Jesus Christ?
    James says in James 2:19

    You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    is belief enough? Or is there more to it?

    God bless



«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,069 ✭✭✭homer911


    The term "born again" has been largely dropped by the modern churches, even Evangelical ones, due to the negative associations in the case of people who would consider themselves life-long committed Christians without experiencing a moment in their lives they can attribute as becoming a Christian.

    Is belief enough? Not unless its combined with repentance. Are works necessary? No. Are works evidence of a born-again life? Absolutely



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    yup, but as Homer911 says, the jargon…. like "bathed in the blood" etc can be off putting



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Nah.

    Once was enough



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭DayInTheBog


    If it was good enough for Jesus to speak about it, it's good enough for me to speak about it and call it what He called it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49 redmeadow


    Amen, I heard someone say recently that Faith is belief in action, like what James said Faith without works is dead.

    I can understand that people who grew up in a Christian church and never strayed into very obvious sin might not remember a moment or a general period of time where they remember fully giving themselves to God, but I would be fearful of dropping or not preaching on being born again, it’s so easy to be obedient to a dead religious belief rather than having a saving faith and not being convicted of any major sin in your life while remaining blind to self righteousness.
    it might be easy to think you’re saved relative to a very corrupt world but still be lost having not fully surrendered to God.
    The message of the cross is an offence to a world that’s perishing and if we Christians are offended by it we definitely need to be worried.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49 redmeadow


    Yes the jargon can be strange to non- believers but I wonder do we giro much credence to our pragmatism.
    No matter how much logic and eloquence we preach with, it is ultimately the Holy Spirit that convicts.
    The message of the cross is foolishness to a world that’s perishing but to us being saved it’s the power of God.
    I think Gods word doesn’t return void and we shouldn’t be afraid to share it, it could be the verse that may unlock something in someone’s mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49 redmeadow


    Amen, couldn’t agree more and I think it’s so important in a world full of people with a dead faith and a false sense of salvation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49 redmeadow


    the scary thing is once is not enough if we want eternal life without suffering. Being Born again is a spiritual rebirth, having died to our old lives of sin, living our own way on our own terms, and becoming a new creation obedient to God, we then call Jesus our Lord (because of our obedience) and our saviour.
    We then get to call God our Father because we become adopted children of God, he then hears our prayers because God only hears the prayers of the obedient, his perfect Will becomes our Will.

    In our sin we are children of disobedience, children of wrath, Satan is our father, when we repent we are children of God, children of the promise, Gods mercy and grace is poured out upon us.
    God bless



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    When you say "God only hears the prayers of the obedient", what is the reference for that in the Bible?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49 redmeadow


    there is quite a few references, some clear ones are John 9:31, 1 Peter 3:12 and Proverbs 15:29.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    Thank you. That would make another great debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49 redmeadow


    yes not many know those verses or even where Jesus says don’t pray like the pagans who think they will be heard because of their many words or repetitions, I’m paraphrasing this so it’s not exactly right.
    Also it’s worth thinking about our Lord’s Prayer which was Jesus instruction on how to pray.
    Our Father first assumes we have repented of our sin and put our Faith in Jesus Christ, become Born again as a child of God, if we haven’t done that we are still a child of Gods coming judgment and wrath, we are still at enmity with God.
    He says “Your Will be done on Earth and it is in Heaven”, we are praying for Gods Will and not our own, we are agreeing with God and putting our Faith in his perfect knowledge.
    Prayer is a constant conversation with God that helps to keep our Will alligned with his Will. When Solomon prayed for wisdom, God answered his prayer because it was righteous and according to Gods will, if we pray for righteous things in our life our prayers will also be answered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    I can understand how an infant is brought into a particular faith at an early age - it’s very easy to brainwash the young.

    But grown adults who make a conscious decision that all the Holy Spirit/virgin birth/rise from the dead/heaven & hell malarkey is actually true, is baffling to me.

    I wonder what other ridiculous decisions these people are making in their lives.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    People regularly make all sorts of choices that others might find baffling or irrational. Going down to the pub to watch a game of footie on the big screen might seem normal to many, but if you think of it as a bunch a adults spending their hard-earned money to slowly poison themselves while getting excited over another bunch of adults kicking a piece of inflated leather around a field, it might seem a bit dubious. This doesn't make it reasonable to log onto a football forum and slag off those who find enjoyment in such things.

    As a lifelong atheist myself, I think of religious belief in a similar way. Not my thing, nor ever likely to be, but at the same time I can see that it enriches the lives of many folks who think differently. The only time I take issue with religion is where its practitioners try to impose their belief system, or its deriviatives, on my or those close to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    In my humble opinion, it is not a decision to believe, it relies on faith, a gift. I became a Christian long before I became a church-goer. There is good and bad in the church, as in politics and schools and in every other sphere of life. We have to use discernment to see which is which. Enjoy the good. Expel the bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    But how as an adult can you come to the conclusion that Jesus is divine?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,283 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, how would you come to the conclusion that he's not?

    I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if you're, by your own account, "baffled" that someone would adopt this belief, that does suggest that you yourself hold the contrary belief, hold it very strongly, and regard it as evidently true. Is that the case? Or is your bafflement based on something else?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Not sure it works quite like that. Some people come to religion later in life as they are deeply unhappy with their current life and are looking for a profound change. Many religious groups actively recruit on such a basis. Joining a religion is also joining a community and realigning one's philosophical and moral outlook in addition just adding a belief in the divine. The conclusion might be that this is a necessary change for the better rather than an in-depth scrutiny of whether the underlying belief system is rational.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,283 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Some people come to religion later in life as they are deeply unhappy with their current life and are looking for a profound change. 

    Some do. But it needn't be as dramatic as "deeply unhappy" or "profound change". Some people come to religion simply because they encounter it (e.g. through a relationship) and they find it attractive or life-enhancing in some way.

    The conclusion might be that this is a necessary change for the better rather than an in-depth scrutiny of whether the underlying belief system is rational.

    Iscreamkone may not be suggesting that a belief in the divinity of Jesus is irrational — there's nothing inherently irrational about that belief — but rather that it is untrue. Or, at least, that he can't see a basis for accepting it as true.

    I think very few people are drawn to religion (or, if brought up in religion, kept in it) out of an intellectual conviction of the truth of the precepts of the religion. That's not an especially helpful approach to religious questions, since a lot of propositions that religions make are not capable of objective verification or refutation, so if you adopt that criterion you'll be in a state of permanent perplexity and indecision. Rather people ask themselves ask themselves whether the precepts and practices of the religion in question are useful, worthwhile, make sense, etc (by which they generally mean useful, worthwhile, etc to them). If their overall experience of religion is a positive one, then they are disposed to accept the theology offered by the religion as a valid or meaningful account of why that should be so. But the theology isn't the driver here.

    (Just as it usually isn't the driver when people leave religion, or switch from one religion to another.)



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Some do. But it needn't be as dramatic as "deeply unhappy" or "profound change". Some people come to religion simply because they encounter it (e.g. through a relationship) and they find it attractive or life-enhancing in some way.

    Perhaps, but I suspect those who are largely happy with their lives are considerably less likely to adopt religion in adulthood than those who are not. I'd imagine that those religious groups that canvas door to door for example are actively looking to recruit primarily from the mildly disaffected to the deeply troubled in our society. Others, such as the AA and some religious charities, introduce the religion while providing assistance to those in need. While there may be a number of perfectly happy folk who rock up to their local church looking to join, I'd guess they're in a rather small minority.

    Again speculation, but I think the reasons for leaving or changing religion are rather different. Some take issue with the actions or position of the church they're in. Others simply don't see the value in ongoing participation, or never opted to be a member of the church as an adult in the first instance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,283 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The religious groups that canvas door-to-door have an extremely low success rate, which perhaps suggests that what they do to propagate their religion may not be the best examplar of they things that actually do propagate religion. Similarly the number of people who become religious because they were involved with AA or availed themselves of the services of the Salvation Army or whatever is not large.

    Very few people turn up through what you might call independent enquiry — they read about some church and decide "Oh, that sounds interesting — I'll go along on Sunday and give it a try". Most are there either because they are looking to make some change in their lives (which in turn means, yes, they are in some was dissatisfied with their lives as they are) or because they've had some encounter with the religion concerned — often, in the context of a romantic or family relationship — and find that it's a positive experience. Very often it's a combination of the two factors — one way or another they're looking for something, or are open to looking for something, and the relationship or connection is what leads them to look here.

    Again speculation, but I think the reasons for leaving or changing religion are rather different. Some take issue with the actions or position of the church they're in. Others simply don't see the value in ongoing participation, or never opted to be a member of the church as an adult in the first instance.

    By far the commonest way of leaving religion, at least in Ireland, is being brought up in religion and at some point (stereotypically, adolescence or early adulthood) falling away. My observation would be that this is mostly down to indifference — people simply don't see any value in participating, so they stop participating, And this would tie in with the stereotype just mentioned about the time of life when this happens — it's a time when your world is opening up, all kinds of new possiblities are presenting themselves, and religion doesn't seem to have anything to do with all this, so you just move on. In a way this isn't that different an impulse from the one just described — you're looking for something, but in this case religion doesn't seem to offer it.

    But, yeah, sometimes it's more than indifference — it's revulsion. This can happen at any time of life and it often is connected with a negative experience that you yourself, or someone close to you, has. Coverage of clerical sex scandals or child abuse as a phenomenon is certainly damaging to the church, but what really causes people who have been engaged with religion to bail out is adverse experiences that they themselves have, or that involve people or groups that they know or care about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,347 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    This is bad logic though. If you're saying Jesus is divine, you're the one making the claim of divinity.

    Look at Russell's teapot theory. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. You don't put the burden of proof on someone to claim the negative, that makes no sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,283 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No. We're not talking about a situation here in which A is trying to convince B that Jesus is divine. I agree, in that situation, it would be perfectly reasonable for B to say to A "you need to show me why I should believe this".

    The situation here is that A believes that Jesus is divine, but he has not asked B to believe that. Rather, B does not understand how A, as an adult, can believe it. In this situation, A is under no obligation to justify his belief to B; if A's reasons for believing what he believes are good enough for A then B's lack of understanding is not a reason why A should abandon his belief. The implicit challenge here is actually being raised by B — "An adult cannot believe this; therefore A should not believe this". And that's a challenge that B has to explain and support.

    I don't see this as a "burden of proof" thing. B doesn't actually have to prove that an adult can't believe that Jesus is divine. (If he did, he'd be snookered, because the claim is refuted by easily observed evidence — lots of adults do believe that Jesus is divine, so this is demonstrably something that adults can believe.) The discussion that B wants to have is not, I think, about whether Jesus is divine or not; still less about whether Jesus can be proven to be divine; it's about what kind of reasons we might have for believing, or not believing, that Jesus is divine, and whether they would be good reasons. This can be an interesting and productive discussion and it could even change minds (on one side or the other) but it's not a quest for any kind of "proof", so "burden of proof" is not an especially helpful way of framing it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,347 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I get your arguement - my response was more directed at your answer to person B's question rather than the larger conversation between the two.

    The answer given in response to person B's pointed question;

    'But how as an adult can you come to the conclusion that Jesus is divine?'

    Can never be:

    'Well, how would you come to the conclusion that he's not?'

    In the above, person B is quite literally asking person A to explain how they came to this conclusion. It's a pointed question in itself about the divinity of Jesus.

    How person A responds is up to them (as you've noted, they don't need to prove anything, it can simply be a personal belief) - however, your response framing the same question back to person B's question still falls foul of disproving someone else's claim IMO.

    It's not up to person B to come to any conclusions that Jesus is not divine. It's the default position that he is not divine. Logically this should have been implied before you even asked the question.

    Similarly, you don't have to come to any conclusion about Russell's invisible teapot orbiting the sun, the default position is that it's not there.

    If you asked me:

    'But how as an adult can you come to the conclusion that there's an invisible teapot orbiting the sun?'

    And I replied with;

    'Well, how would you come to the conclusion that there's not?'

    You'd likely (quite rightly!) scoff and tell me to stop being so ridiculous and that I need to prove my silly claim.

    The only real difference in both situations is the reverence given to the divinity of Jesus, which seems to transcend any notion that perhaps his lack of divinity is, in fact, the default position. (Similarly to the non existence of Russell's teapot.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    I recently saw a map of Germany showing the distribution of religions including atheism. The old West Germany showed areas where the different religions were popular and the old East Germany was mainly atheistic.

    Why after 30 years of freedom have the East Germans and their children not “seen the light” and returned to religion?

    They have access to all the information and resources that the West Germans currently have.

    Are adults who are “born again” in need of some help with their lives, and use religion as a crutch?

    I find the adults who decide to be “born again” to be fascinating- in that I personally can not comprehend their decision making process.

    My own decision making seems logical/easy for me. Is there evidence of a god? No. If provided with real evidence would I change my mind? Yes.

    The decision making of the “born again” is a lot more complicated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Jellybaby_1


    "Why after 30 years of freedom have the East Germans and their children not “seen the light” and returned to religion?"

    To me there is a world of difference between religion and faith. I am a Christian - end of story. If I never entered a church again in my life it would not make a jot of difference to my faith. Sometimes it is difficult to cross the threshold of a church because it could be difficult to find Christ there. I know I am shouting at clouds here, but it's the way I see it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 886 ✭✭✭moonage


    I'm born again but I wasn't born again yesterday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,283 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    O1s1in:

    The answer given in response to person B's pointed question;

    'But how as an adult can you come to the conclusion that Jesus is divine?'

    Can never be:

    'Well, how would you come to the conclusion that he's not?'

    In the above, person B is quite literally asking person A to explain how they came to this conclusion. It's a pointed question in itself about the divinity of Jesus.

    Ah, I see where you're coming from.

    Bit of a misunderstanding — my fault. When I framed the question as "how would you come to the conclusion that he's not?" I didn't really mean you, Iscreamkone; I meant the generic "you", anybody. How does anybody come either to the view that Jesus is divine or to the view that he is not? Iscreamkone clearly does have opinions about how such views are formed or how they should be formed, since he expects adults to form one of these views rather than the other, so the question was designed to get him to elaborate on that.

    The Russell's teapot analogy is not a particular useful one, since a belief in Russell's teapot is of a fundamentally different nature than a belief in divinity.

    The teapot, if it existed, would be one tiny physical aspect of a vast physical universe, and two people who argued about the teapot would be proceeding on the basis of a huge amount of shared belief about the physical universe. And one of the things they would agree on is that, if the teapot did exist, there would have to be a naturalistic explanation for it. (And any naturalistic explanation we could imagine seems very improbable, given what we already know about the physical universe.)

    Whereas if two people argue about divinity, their argument is of a fundamentally different character. Each of them is offering an alternative account of why the universe exists at all, and why it is the way it is. The null position, that the universe doesn't exist and/or that its character is entirely random, is already ruled out by both of them, so each of them is making a positive assertion. The two assertions are inconsistent. Each bears the burden of proof in relation to the assertion they offer. Neither of them can be proven by scientific means. Where does that leave us?

    In the present context, given that science is useless in validating or invalidating claims about divinity, how do we evaluate such claims?

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,283 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I recently saw a map of Germany showing the distribution of religions including atheism. The old West Germany showed areas where the different religions were popular and the old East Germany was mainly atheistic.

    Why after 30 years of freedom have the East Germans and their children not “seen the light” and returned to religion?

    We could equally ask ourselves why West Germans, who have been free for 70 years, have not seen the light and abandoned religion?

    If we widen the scope of our enquiry a bit, and look at the rest of the post-Soviet world, we see that the picture is actually quite mixed.

    • Religious identification saw a sharp decline in Russia after 1917. Not suprising, perhaps, given the transition from a political regime that strongly supported (a particular) religion to one that strongly opposed religion — there was no intervening period of religious freedom. So people do respond to religious repression by weakening their religious identification.
    • In 1945, many European countries were brought into the Soviet sphere, and religion was officially repressed (though mostly not as vigorously as in the USSR itself). Before the war, most of these countries had, broadly speaking, enjoyed religious freedom, though in some there was official support or at least official favour for a particular church.
    • In most of those countries religious identification declined after 1945, except in Poland, where it actually intensified. The conventional account of this is that in Poland religious identification became an expression of resistance not just to religious repression but to national repression. We could ask ourselves why this happened in Poland but not in any other country in the Soviet sphere, but for present purposes the takeaway is this; we now have to say that people usually respond to religious repression by weakening their religious identification, but sometimes they do the opposite.
    • Along comes the fall of communism, and state repression of religion is ended. What happens? Religious identification rises in all post-Soviet countries except East Germany and Czechoslovakia, where it remains low, and Poland, where it actually falls (though still remaining relatively high).

    It's not astonishing that, in general, religious identification rises when official repression ends. We don't have to struggle to account for this; it's just the flip side of religious identification falling when repression starts. But East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland look like exceptions for which we do need to account.

    An account for Poland presents itself fairly easily; if some people asserted a religious identification as a way of expressing resistance to Soviet domination, once Soviet domination came to an end motivation to assert a religious identification was weakened.

    East Germany and the Czech lands are not so easy to account for, but it is probably relevant that, of all the countries in the Soviet sphere, they were the most strongly atheist. That suggests there may have been cultural factors at work to keep religious identification low; it was more that just the official repression. And of course those factors may have persisted after the repressionended. And at least a part of the explanation may also be that, when religious repression came to an end, the churches were so weakened, so hollowed out, that they struggled to take advantage of this, or to present themselves in a way that would make them attractive. People participate in religion for a variety of reasons, but one of them is to connect with community. And if the churches are very marginal organisations in the community, that doesn't really work.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    It's not astonishing that, in general, religious identification rises when official repression ends. We don't have to struggle to account for this; it's just the flip side of religious identification falling when repression starts

    Worth noting that the same is of course true for atheism in strongly religious countries, including Ireland where expressions of atheism were villified by the church and broader society. One obvious reason for the rise of irreligion in this country is kicking back against this historical repression on the one hand and simply being allowed to voice strong sentiment against both the church and Christian belief on the other. It is this freedom from repression that has led to exposing and understanding the many abuses by the church in our recent history.

    I would humbly suggest that it is more correct to say that divirsity of religious belief, and lack thereof, rises when official repression ends. It is a function of as more tolerant society.



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