ARE YOU BORN AGAIN???

redmeadow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123649100#Comment_123649100

seems intellectually dishonest to me

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123649268#Comment_123649268

Not at all, the following diagram might help you. Atheism does not necessarily make any claim to knowledge.

hfenton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123649156#Comment_123649156

Agree, as any such first person encounter, even it was actually real, and genuinely God, and he demonstrated and created for you anything you could think of (from let's say planet creation, to healing, to resurrection) as evidence they were God, could be easily dismissed as a) not necessarily God, but rather just an extremely advanced and powerful alien being outside our concept, or b) your hallucination. You don't have to let me know btw, as no one will believe you anyway, including me 😊

redmeadow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123649450#Comment_123649450

I think your chart is very confused and redefining terms.
An “agnostic theist” is a contradiction, a thirst is someone who does believe in a knowable or personal God, Desism is the term for people who believe in God but not one that can be known or interacts in creation.
A Gnostic theist also doesn’t make sense, all Theists believe that God can be known but it is still by Faith. Gnosticism has a very different meaning within Christianity.
The same applies to your agnostic atheist terms

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123651566#Comment_123651566

Agnostic theism is a well documented philosphical viewpoint and distinct from deism. An agnostic theist believes in the existence of one or more gods, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable. You also get Agnostic Christians who follow a similar line of thought, but only with respect to the Christian god. You get a similar situation with agnostic atheists who don't believe in the existence of one or more gods, but regard the basis of that proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable. Similarly you get no shortage of Christian atheists, who go through all of the formal tradition and ceremony associated with religion but don't actually believe in God.

Bottom line is we can't speak with any authority on the personal beliefs or philosophy of other people. As for defining terms, I've already copied in the standard dictionary definition of atheist, which as pointed out previously, does not imply any claim of knowledge. A lack of belief is not an assertion. I invite you to present a link to a broadly accepted definition for atheist that differs from the one linked. If you can't find one, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your own understanding of the term.

redmeadow

agnostic theists and agnostic Christians are both contradictory statements, they may not be to a confused world but they are to a Bible believing Christian.
A biblical Christian is someone born again in the Holy Spirit, they have give their life to Jesus, there can be no agnostic element to it.
A Theist is some one who believes in a personal or knowable God who involves himself in creation.
I think for your terms to make sense you would have to redefine belief also- it’s like saying I believe I can fly if I flap my arms fast enough but when someone asks you to jump of a building you won’t do it because you don’t truly believe. You might think it’s possible but you don’t believe.
An agnostic theist is simply agnostic just like an agnostic Christian is simply agnostic, they might like Christian traditions etc but that’s not what make someone a Christian especially in the Biblical sense which is what this thread is about, born again Christians.

smacl

Those definitions, much like your own understanding of the word atheist, are part of your own personally held beliefs. They do not correspond with more broadly accepted definitions, nor accept that even with Christianity there are a very wide range of beliefs out there. Whether or not you consider some who calls themselves an agnostic Christian is not actually a Christian, or someone who considers themselves an agnostic atheist is not actually an atheist, is no more or less than your opinion. It is their opinion on their beliefs that matter and stating otherwise is disrespectful of those beliefs.

redmeadow

you have got to the essence of this thread now, what it means to be “born again”, what is a biblical Christian, what is biblical faith or belief.
It’s clear to see that the secular world holds to different views on these terms, truth is subjective, definitions can change, if someone wants to identify as a Christian even though there is no substance to their faith they can and it’s disrespectful to state otherwise, it’s just like someone identifying as the opposite sex, there is no absolute source of truth in your world view so you can’t see the contradiction in agnostic Christians or agnostic theists.
without God we are subject to the confusion of this world. I’m not presenting opinion to you but what the Bible says, the source of our knowledge of Jesus Christ who is the truth

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123660063#Comment_123660063

…in your opinion.

Something I can never get over when it comes to fervent religious folks like yourself is your solipsistic view of the world.

I'd almost view it as narcissism.

Personally I don't know how someone can be so confident as to claim to have knowledge of the existance of life, the universe and everything because they happened to be born in a particular country that venerates a particular book.

Some coincidence that. What are the odds.

redmeadow

no not in my opinion, you can read the Bible for yourself to see how a Christian is defined, to see how Faith is defined, I’m not giving opinion but biblical definitions that he rejects because he rejects the Bible as a source of truth.
It is my opinion that the Bible is the inspired word of God, Faith is a personal thing.

As for a solipsistic view of the world, that just seems like a straw man argument.
We are talking about the existence of God and in turn the existence of objective truth, if we can know God and truth well then this debate is largely pointless.
The Christian doesn’t claim that their mind is the truth and everyone else isn’t or is wrong, the Christian submits to God as the source of truth.
To an Athiest or agnostic who denies God or that you could know truth then that can seem like a narcissistic claim, they think that because they don’t know God then know one else could.
In Ireland we definitely don’t venerate the Bible, it’s largely frowned upon with it the Roman Catholic Church to read the Bible, people were burned at the stake for translating it into English, the day that they are the only authority that can interpret scripture in contradiction to what the Bible clearly says.
God has revealed his truth to all people through creation, through our conscience, through the prophets, through his Son Jesus Christ, through the Apostles and through the word of God in the Bible.
If your obedient to the knowledge you do have then more will be given, if you reject the little you do have then you will remain ignorant. His word says seek and you will find, knock and the door will be open.

when you deny God you are ultimately denying truth, you are lawless going with the flow of the world towards destruction

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123660498#Comment_123660498

In this forum, we use the following definition of Christian as described in the forum charter

For the purposes of this board 'Christian' means broad assent to historic Christian belief such as is contained in the Apostles' Creed. Individual posters with other beliefs, however, are welcome.

Your definition no doubt matches your beliefs and beliefs of those that share that specific understanding of what it means to be a Christian. However, Christianity is often described as a broad church and this forum is designed to be open and inclusive to that breadth of beliefs. Quoting scripture does not alter this.

The charter doesn't have a specific definition for the term atheist, so the definition from any standard dictionary is reasonable.

hfenton

Presumably there are also such people who see themselves as Christian Atheists, who believe in some of Christs moral teachings and how he lived, but not his divinity or the supernatural. Many Christians today act in practical terms as if God does not exist, and many atheists are practically Christian in their day-to-day outlook.

Although I would not go so far as to call Richard Dawkins a Christian atheist, he stated last year that he likes to “live in a culturally Christian country" and that he identifies as a “cultural Christian” he “would not be happy if, for example, we lost all our cathedrals and our beautiful parish churches.” “So I call myself a cultural Christian and I think it would be truly dreadful if we substituted any alternative religion” although in the usual Dawkin's sytle, he made clear that he still does not believe “a word” of the Christian faith.

smacl

Dawkins, in my opinion, does not espouse what I'd think of as many the virtues a good Christian would aspire to. Love thy neighbour comes to mind ;)