FF TD thinks learners should be allowed drive unaccompanied...

Have you had a read of the EDT booklet? If the EDT was done properly, the way the RSA want it, it’s not suitable. For argument’s sake, if we say that EDT sessions are 1 hour ( they need to be 1 hour minimum), then students, over the 12 lessons, would barely have 6 hours driving under their belt after those 12 lessons. The RSA will then say that they recommend 3 hours of lessons (practice sessions) between each EDT session. How many students do you think actually do that?

How many learner drivers do you think actually listen to their instructor when they’re told they need x more lessons? Once the 12 lessons are done and they are on the waiting list, the instructor, most of the time, won’t hear from them until they have their test booked. Then it’s a siege of bad habits, if they actually are driving in the mean time.

Ok I see you chose not to answer the question I posed , and ignored where I said that if an instructor recommends more lessons before you take a test.

12 lessons is the minimum before you can take a test. RSA rules not mine. Do you have to take the test? No.

Should you take the test if you feel you are not ready or an instructor/ parent/ professional driver advises against it? Not advisable.

The RSA will then say that they recommend 3 hours of lessons (practice sessions) between each EDT session. How many students do you think actually do that? No idea, please enlighten me.

How many learner drivers do you think actually listen to their instructor when they’re told they need x more lessons? 

No idea but I would wager those who do take the advice have a far greater chance of passing.

Then it’s a siege of bad habits, if they actually are driving in the mean time.

Where are they getting the bad habits from if they are not driving with the instructer? Wouldnt be the qualified driver would it? No they make the learner safer apparantly.

On your second provisional you could, I did mine on my first provisional and it was a 9 / 10 month waiting list at that stage, so I could not drive unaccompanied & I'm sure I was not the only person like that.

27 weeks, not that big of a deal, just apply as soon as possible and continue to prepare in the interim.

Pure incompetence on the part of the RSA can be the only reason for the inexcusable waiting time for driving tests in Ireland.

Anyone planning to sit the driving test has to apply for and sit the theory test, apply for a learner permit, take twelve Essential Driver Training lessons (or six in the case of drivers from other countries that qualify for Reduced Essential Driver Training lessons), progress through training is logged with the RSA, a learner has to have their learner permit for at least six months before they can apply for an invitation to apply for their driving test.

The RSA should have months if not more than a year visibility on the number of driver tests they need to perform. Not planning for and having enough testers to perform the number of driver tests required is nothing short of gross incompetence.

At €85 per test, driver testing should be profitable, making the lack of test capacity is even more incomprehensible.

We don't need to allow potentially incompetent drivers on the roads unsupervised, we need to hold the RSA and its senior management accountable for their incompetence.

The RSA should have months if not more than a year visibility on the number of driver tests they need to perform. Not planning for and having enough testers to perform the number of driver tests required is nothing short of gross incompetence.

The RSA have 2 years to know that an ADI needs a check test, but more often than not, an ADI’s badge is out of date before they get their check test to renew their permit. Gross incompetence is an understatement.

Of course instructors can say if someone is ready for the test, but the problem with it is, like everything, it can be corrupted. And how does someone prove that “my instructor said I could drive on my own”? A cert? Sure, but is someone going to bother doing their test if they have that cert?

I’ve seen plenty ready to take a test after 2/3 lessons, but you have to sit through it, wasting time for both instructor and learner. A total overhaul is needed, which, unfortunately, won’t come anytime soon.

As for an experienced driver sitting on, they are really only there for an extra pair of eyes, and to help make decisions at junctions/roundabouts. Other than that, there really is no use. Maybe just to calm them after a mistake (like a few stalls in a row).

Interesting points there.

Perhaps I should have put it into context in terms of learner drivers waiting for a test and the requirement for the accompanied driver - Would you see many who you think are ready to take the test ( and by extension) capable of driving alone while they wait?

Like I said before , many , many (!) moons ago I failed , drove home and waited another year for a test. An unaccompanied driver would have made absolutely no difference in my driving style.

Sure. Accompanied drivers can be a bit of a nuisance, if they don’t pay attention to the rules themselves, as was said earlier, the learner can soon become accustomed to letting things “slide” (Stop signs being a number one here, and a pet peeve of mine).

Like everything, you have pros and cons, and will have people bringing up points that others have overlooked. It should be telling that the RSA don’t go to Driving instructors when they feel some things need to be changed, just to get their view. Just recently they made a small change to the driving test, where they first trialled it in Kilkenny. The only people they asked an opinion from, after the pilot scheme, was testers and learners. ADI’s didn’t get a voice in it.

Well if your ' driving test' scheme wasnt an unmittigated disaster we would be having this discussion in the first place.

I have no doubt that what you say is true, but both the RSA and road traffic law as it stands goes a very long way to undermining the test and breeding the attitude you speak about.

These are moreso questions for the RSA than you specifically, but I can't think that the RSA have good answers for any of them.

1. What is the accompanying driver supposed to do exactly? What legal responsibility toward the safety of the vehicle does the accompanying driver have? There is no requirement that they are even insured to take over driving. They can be asleep or have their head buried in their phone.
   
   The RSA say that in 74% of fatal collisions involving a leaner, the learner was unaccompanied. As is usual with the RSA's 4th Class level statistics that they publish, that tells us nothing about who was responsible for the collision.
   
   I'm not saying that it isn't generally helpful for a learner to have an astute fully qualified driver in the passenger seat, or that I don't agree with it principle myself, but the RSA don't appear (after a short search) to provide any guidance on how to act as an accompanying driver. There needs to be basis behind such laws, and a holistic approach in getting people to understand them, for people to take them seriously.
   
   
2. The majority of deaths on Ireland's roads occur on 80/100km stretches. No training is mandated on fast roads, or how to control a car at speed, nor is it tested for. Pottering around town isn't adequate, given the rural nature of Ireland's road network.
   
   Where I'm going with this is that the RSA also refuse to release collision data which would differentiate between "Inappropriate speed" (ie; below the limit but still too fast) and, "Above the speed limit". IMO learners oftentimes simple don't know that a corner on an 80km/h road cannot be taken at 80km/h.
   
   
3. N Plates. All that the 2 year timeframe does in my opinion is undermine the test. It's an admission that the passage of time is a major factor in road safety. Critically, this isn't experience. In my first years driving, before N Plates were mandatory, I did 35k km/year. Others might do 3500 km/year.
   
   Experience is of course a major factor, but an arbitrary timescale doesn't address that without implying that the test itself isn't fit to guarantee safe drivers. Either introduce additional testing after a set time, or make the test more comprehensive so that the baseline driving skill is higher immediately after the test.

the test in its current form doesn’t really make a jot of sense. It’s simply as assessment of your driving on the given 40 mins or whatever you’re doing it. You don’t have to be a good or safe driver to pass the test.

I would say a better idea is allow learners to drive unaccompanied— but there’s no points. If you speed, you’re done, no seatbelt you’re done, etc. zero tolerance if you’re a learner caught breaking the law that’s you go do the theory test again. Obviously a 6 month embargo or something probably escalating with each successive loss.

I don’t understand how learner drivers are allowed amass 7 points. That’s crazy. If you get 7 points before even getting a full licence then how the Christ are you driving?

The whole system requires overhaul basically. I don’t see why a novice driver on the road less than a year is grand to drive unaccompanied over a learner who’s done their lessons is driving for ages but just can’t get a test appointment. I don’t regard someone as capable of driving because they pleased an RSA examiner one day.

I drove unaccompanied because I didn’t have anyone with a full licence available to drive with me. I was more careful than most because I did not want to attract the Gardai’s attention being on a learner permit. The colour of a plastic card doesn’t a good driver make.

At the rate of urban sprawl, building out not up, there won't be much rural Ireland to worry about for very long.

The amnesty was 45 years ago. Most of those licence holders are either retired or nearing retirement age. They would be a tiny minority of drivers.