FF TD thinks learners should be allowed drive unaccompanied...

NIMAN

Were we the only country allowed to drive on your own on L plates?

I learned to drive in the North, and the idea of heading out in the car on my own when I got L plates would have sounded like absolute madness.

User1998

I got my learners on my 17th birthday. About 6 months later I passed my test. There was a huge waiting list even back then but I called the RSA for cancellations every day until I got one. I don’t think its possible to call for cancellations anymore. This was 8 years ago.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454077#Comment_123454077

The difference now is that learners at least are going through a structured system of theory and practical instructions.

There is more than one difference between then and now. For a start, there are far more cars on the road now.
Our drivers also face added distractions particularly with their phones which although illegal are still rampantly used by people driving.

They are in my opinion far more suited to drive unaccompanied then I was in hindsight.

If you are eligible to take a test after 12 lessons but cant through no fault of your own , should you be punished for it?

Nobody is being punished though so stop trying to portray them as victims!
The suggestion to allow someone drive alone is a stupid one. At a time when we are trying to make our roads safer, the idea of enabling an unlicenced driver* out on the roads is reckless. Whatever about the past, we don't live there anymore - we live in an era where this rightfully is not acceptable.

If someone feels they are being punished then they need to be reminded that the ability to drive is not a right, it is a privilege!

* a person learning to drive does not have a licence at all - they have a learner's permit

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454077#Comment_123454077

And as I have said / asked before - does a licenced driver sitting beside a learner make them magically safer on the road?

Of course it does. Second pair of eyes for a start.

Very obviously a learner needs a qualified driver in the car with them as they start learning, to teach them how to drive. At what point would you then determine that the qualified driver is no longer required? Maybe some sort of test to determine that...

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454095#Comment_123454095

I learnt in the UK. the traffic division would have you off the road in no time. very few of my friends would have tried it ( my cousin did and he was put off the road within months)

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454157#Comment_123454157

The difference I eluded to was that you could in theory get a provisional licence from the county coucil / corporation, never have any instructions or lessons or any kind, rock up to the test centre and take your test. Nowadays it is not the case as i have mentioned in my post.

I'm not portraying anyone as victims. its no skin off my nose. This is a discussion forum. I am merely you know …have a discussion

Learner permit / Licence - tomato / tomato

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123453912#Comment_123453912

You can also drive on motorways as a learner.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454161#Comment_123454161

never had an accomp. No one to come along with me.

12 lessons and passed test first time with a cancellation (booked on a Friday test on Monday).

I don’t think forcing learners to have an accomp makes them better or safer drivers. Some people shouldn’t be allowed drive with Jesus beside them.

Seth Brundle

Some people shouldn’t be allowed drive with Jesus beside them.

Well sure he never sat a driving test himself!

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454294#Comment_123454294

Be god I say he wrote the test!

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123451790#Comment_123451790

What would you expect from a clown who is writing to the vatican to see if they have the mythical crown of Brian Boru???

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454161#Comment_123454161

Fair enough assuming the qualified driver is prepared to do his / her but. What if those second pair of eyes were asleep / scrolling on their phone or were an even worse driver than the learner?

' indicate? nah your grand pull out there f**K em' ' overtake that truck on the corner you'll be grand' ' plonk yourself in the middle lane, let them all go around you' …. I could go on .

Does anyone know if the accompanied driver has to sit in the front passenger seat? Are they legally obliged to be a second pair of eyes ?

Unless the car is dual control how exactly does the accompanied driver affect the driving of the car unless they wrestle the steering wheel from the driver A - team style or pull up the handbreak? At most they can start screaming at the driver?

No distraction there obviously

The qualified driver is no longer required for the learner after the 12 lessons because …. the learner is now deemd ready to take his/ her test … in thoery at least ( no pun intended) . On one hand you are ready for the test on your own, but not able to drive to the test centre on your own. Seems odd to me .

magicbastarder

I don’t think forcing learners to have an accomp makes them better or safer drivers. Some people shouldn’t be allowed drive with Jesus beside them.

are you saying there should be no safeguards on learner drivers driving unaccompanied? they may have done their 12 lessons (which by definition are accompanied), but if i read you right, you'd be OK with them being allowed drive alone after that, even if they've actually learned nothing from the lessons?

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454329#Comment_123454329

Plus knowing us, we'd find some way of fudging that you had 12 lessons when you really didn't.

RoTelly

I think for 1 month before you test, and your test date should be in the car with you. This is at the very most, otherwise it just leads to waiting lists and eventual to the point were you have people driving on their permit for 20 years failing every test they do. And we are back were we were before we brought in the new system.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454312#Comment_123454312

The qualified driver is no longer required for the learner after the 12 lessons because …. the learner is now deemd ready to take his/ her test

deemed by whom? themselves.

going for a driving test does not mean you are 'ready for the test'.

as i can attest from my time in college, sitting a test did not mean i was by definition 'ready for' it. going to my lectures did not mean i was 'ready for the test'.

magicbastarder

IIRC (and i'll need to find the link to confirm) you're more likely to crash the car while having a phone conversation - even with hands free bluetooth - than you are having a conversation with someone sitting beside you, in the passenger seat. and a lot of the difference is attributed to the 'second pair of eyes' effect.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454329#Comment_123454329

No my assertion would be that after the 12 successful lessons, where the instructor has deemed them proficient for taking the test, then there should be no legal requirment for an accompanied driver. What does it add to the driver? You are either ready or not.

Of course if they haven't learned anything or are a danger to themselves or others, then the instructor must advise them that they are not proficient and need more lessons.

Happy to be corrected but are the offical instructor cars not dual control? The instructer can literally intervene with braking and clutch to help prevent an accident? Big difference in that and driving the family saloon.

magicbastarder

there's a massive conflict of interest there; any driving instructor who regularly 'fails' students would lose business massively to instructors known to 'pass' their students.

or; you say 2 'successful' lessons. who deems them successful?

it would also beg the question about what'd be the point of the official test then anyway?

What does it add to the driver? You are either ready or not.

the issue here is the waiting time for the test, not that you're not allowed drive unaccompanied before passing it. if you're ready, sit the test.

TheSunIsShining

In my own case, over 30 years ago, I was driving unaccompanied after 1 lesson at 17. Did it suit me - of course, it was great! With the benefit of hindsight was it wise - probably not! But I passed my test first time, after 3 months of driving, without any issues.

Having gone through it with my own kids, I have to say I can buy into them needing an experienced driver in the car with them. Personally, I was fully engaged next to them and watched everything they did and probably saved them once or twice from minor tips - I remember, for example, one particular moment coming into a roundabout where my son was looking at the traffic to his right and didn't realise the car in front had slammed on the breaks and I had to holler at him to stop to avoid rear ending the car. In reality, one of my children was a very competent driver and I would have been comfortable with them driving on their own after 3 months. The other, not so much. Now who could make that call, I'm not so sure. So as someone above said, ultimately you have to have the test as the arbitrator for it. The issue then is the bloody wait. So I'd focus on getting that sorted. If you could get your text within say 2 weeks then I think that would remove most of the issues.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454369#Comment_123454369

Deemed by the instructor.

going for a driving test does not mean you are 'ready for the test'.

I agree, and in the past this is exactly what you could do. At least in the new system you have at least 12 lessons and the instuctor deems you to be ready.

as i can attest from my time in college, sitting a test did not mean i was by definition 'ready for' it. going to my lectures did not mean i was 'ready for the test'.

So you rocked up to the exam without even opening a book? studying? doing practice exams? Thats a strange take. Even stranger analogy

GTTDI GOD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454390#Comment_123454390

Wow, there is so much wrong with this comment.

First of all, being “successful” in the lessons and being proficient enough to take a driving test are 2 COMPLETELY different things. The reason the lessons are “signed off” is that the information has been provided to the student and some practice has been given. In all theory of the 12 EDT sessions, you could have them all signed off as the topics have been taught to you. Still doesn’t mean you can drive the car properly.

Secondly, an instructor is not a tester. An instructor cannot deem a student able to drive unaccompanied, or else what is the point of the driving test?

Yes, instructor cars are fitted with dual controls.

jackofalltrades

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454390#Comment_123454390

If you think that accompanying drivers aren't effective, the solution to that is to only allow learners to drive using dual-control learner driver cars. As is the norm in at least one other EU country. Only having to have a full licenced driver accompanying you is a big concession to learner drivers.

User1998

A lot of instructors already ‘sign you off’ after 10 lessons. Obviously they take payment for the full 12 tho. I’m sure there are a very select few out there who will just take the payment and sign you off with no lessons actually done.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454408#Comment_123454408

You are the example of the accompanied driver we would all like to see in the car with an obvious vested interest and the ideal example to learn from. They same cannot be said for everyone else, with teaching bad habits at best to teaching dangerous habits at worst. You demonstated my point that the only thing you could have realistically done ( and probably safely done) was holler at your son when you spotted a potential accident. Thankfully no one was hurt and lucky you were there . I know I would have done the same thing myself.

Can I ask did your kids learn through the new system or old one?

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454494#Comment_123454494

Do you mean the requirement for the 12 lessons and to always be accompanied? Yes, they both went through that process if that is what you mean. And I had no issue at all with that as thinking back, I literally drove home myself from my first driving lesson which probably wasn't the wisest thing to do. So hence I guess I was more engaged with helping them and made sure I was 100% focussed on their driving.

And again, the issue is that some drivers who are learning are probably well able to drive alone after a few months - but who can be the judge of that only, I suppose in reality the test itself - so if the test was available within 2 weeks of applying you'd have your independent answer.

Trampas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123453544#Comment_123453544

Didnt think you could back then on a first or third provisional. Just on your second but I’m open to correction

dmakc

Good, back to what it was before. Too much red tape in everything nowadays. Let's not conflate this with asking to drive after 2 pints.

This is also impractical in rural Ireland (where cars are a necessity). The benefit of having someone who passed their test beside a learner is overrated anyway considering they have zero control of the car.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454456#Comment_123454456

Ok for clarification , and not to get bogged down on semantics

By successful i mean, 12 successive lessons where the learner progresses their knowledge of the rules of the road and indeed how to operate the car. I dont mean johnny or mary can't get out of 2nd gear after 4 months. Why 12 lessons? its the mimimum as deemed by the RSA. If people need 24 or 40 lessons so be it.

Now who in your opinion would be best qualified to determine if the driver needs more lessons or was ready to take the test?

Secondly, an instructor is not a tester. An instructor cannot deem a student able to drive unaccompanied, or else what is the point of the driving test

Not in an offical capacity perhaps, but is it not strange that the instructor in his/ her expert opinon ( and of course excluding the aforemention gougers who sign off on 10 lessons etc) can tell you he/she thinks you are ready to take the test which you will drive on your own, but that you are not capable of driving to the very same centre to take said test?

The point of the test? - Independant assessment of driving proficiency. It is has it flaws as much as its merits. Same with any stand alone examination.

For the record I am all for the new system. Going from having no requirement for any prepration to sit a test to theory exams and minmimum lessons is a great step. I just think that the whole accompanied driver thing isnt the double lock that people think it is.

Isthisthingon?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123454614#Comment_123454614

Yes i believe this was the case.

Didn't have to take a test on the first, had to on the second , didn't have to on the 3rd!!!! Madness!