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Why do people drive unnecessarily large cars (AKA "SUVS")?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Which words in that sentence relate to the specific case mentioned?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Do we have an doppelganger of @AndrewJRenko going by the handle @ᎪndrewJRenko. Note different font for the 'A' and only 6 posts v over 31k for the other. Same profile pic



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,250 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    All of them clearly not sure why you are now denying it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    There's nothing in that sentence that refers to that specific case, as you suggested. That's a fairly carefully crafted post, with that sentence referring to the general situation, given the data shared earlier showing the increased risk of danger from SUVs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,250 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Theoretical, at most, and still requires a person to create danger (often someone outside the vehicle). And largely irrelevant in a country with 300,000,000+ vehicle-kilometres between any cause of fatality.

    And of course we know that complaints about SUVs are insidious, since the people whining about them have a broader agenda that would not stop there. Ergo the exaggerated bs complaints about SUVs cannot be taken in isolation.

    So I say **** it. If you want an SUV, buy one. Just make you drive it in a reasonable manner, like the vast majority of Irish drivers.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    "drive it in a reasonable manner, like the vast majority of Irish drivers"

    I take it you don't follow this thread at all? Or the Ireland Shite Drivers sub at reddit?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,052 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    After all the shite talk in this thread about what people choose to drive, for a variety of vested interests, a poor Garda has been killed after being hit by a motorbike at a checkpoint.

    Shows that any badly driven vehicle, no matter what size/weight/height is infinitely more dangerous than any well driven one. That's why drivers get banned and not vehicles.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,867 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    That's a total non sequitur? Whatever the details of that tragedy, it has nothing to do with the safety discussion about SUVs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭SeanW


    How do these threads relate to the "the vast majority" of Irelands 3,257,621 drivers?

    And how do you explain Ireland having among the lowest rankings globally for road fatalities? Or having approximately 300,000,000 vehicle-kilometres between any cause fatalities? Or a supermajority of pedestrian fatalities being caused by the pedestrian, not the driver?

    But hey, at least you proved one thing: that we can't take whining about SUVs in isolation - it's an insidious part of something bigger. Thanks for proving that :)

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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,918 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Or having approximately 300,000,000 vehicle-kilometres between any cause fatalities?

    Clearly, this metric, that you're callously obsessed with, is met frequently given that someone is killed on the roads every couple of days. It clearly isn't the remote figure you try to make it out to be - who knows, the next time it occurs, it could be someone close to you - will you still remain as callous about it then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    These threads relate by being representative samples of the vast majority of Ireland's drivers.

    There's a reasonable number of drivers with dashcams now, but a fairly small number of drivers who'll go to the bother of downloading, editing and posting the kind of stuff we all see on the roads every day - dangerous overtaking, red light jumping, pavement driving and more.

    And yet, these threads have multiple daily examples of dangerously sh1te driving. The prevalence of these examples would suggest that you may have slightly overestimated the reasonable driving practices of the vast majority of Irish drivers.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,867 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    You don't seem to realise that road fatalities are the only metric he recognises. If a driver gets to their destination without having killed anyone, they by definition drove safely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Quite the opposite - it shows that grossly irresponsible road use is what causes fatalities and vehicle size is at most a secondary (and in this country theoretical) factor.

    Yes, this handful of examples could indeed be a representative sample of the other 3.257+ million drivers in Ireland.

    Or, as it more likely, it is representative of a portion of bad drivers and you're (again) lying about the rest.

    False. It means they very likely drove in a reasonable manner. As I think it was you who pointed out, some drivers avoid serious accidents by sheer dumb luck - but by definition sheer dumb luck only protects to a limited and highly unpredictable extent. If bad driving was as commonplace as Andy et. al. claims, it would be showing in the statistics.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    A handful of examples EVERY DAY. Another handful tomorrow. Another handful the day after.

    All those handfuls add up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭SeanW


    So you claim - but there are over 3.25 million drivers in Ireland - how many of them are you trying to slur with this nonsense?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Excuse me, but is basic maths 'a claim' now? A handful every day adds up, to a number much larger than a handful. 365 times larger than a handful in a year. That's a fact, not a claim.

    How many Irish drivers are you trying to claim don't break traffic laws routinely?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,918 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Quite the opposite - it shows that grossly irresponsible road use is what causes fatalities and vehicle size is at most a secondary (and in this country theoretical) factor.

    So we can therefore take it that you'd be happy with strict enforcement, presumably with a zero-tolerance approach, to stop those grossly irresponsible road users from causing fatalities?

    But previously, you were moaning that the vast majority of drivers are not irresponsible and shouldn't be punished for the behaviour of others.

    So are you in favour of road traffic law enforcement or not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It was a Yamaha R1 1000cc motorbike in this case. You could say it was the equivalent of an SUV in the motorbike world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,487 ✭✭✭Allinall




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand:

    1. The vast majority of Irish drivers are not dangerous, nor are their vehicles.
    2. The data calls into question the attempt to generate a moral panic.

    Is there anything in what I actually said that is not clear?

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,867 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Quite the opposite - it shows that grossly irresponsible road use is what causes fatalities and vehicle size is at most a secondary (and in this country theoretical) factor.

    no, it doesn't. it doesn't even come close to showing that. it's a single datum point; and proves *nothing*.

    also, IIRC AJR was lambasted earlier in the thread for using specific fatalities to drive his point across; i'm sure people will likewise condemn the use of the death of that garda being used in a similar manner?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,052 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,867 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Or a supermajority of pedestrian fatalities being caused by the pedestrian, not the driver?

    are you arguing that it's OK if pedestrians die, if they are at fault? the research cited many times in this thread shows children are pretty much twice as likely to die if struck by an SUV than they are by a car. which is obviously going to be true regardless of fault.

    surely the point is that even if we accepted your argument that irish motorists are inherently safe, their choice of vehicle can be a significant factor in the survivability of an incident where the driver is not to blame.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,867 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i just googled that motorbike; to my untutored eyes it would be the equivalent of a high end sports car?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 43,918 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The vast majority of Irish drivers are not dangerous, nor are their vehicles.

    So you're agreeing that there are some drivers who are dangerous and/or their vehicles are dangerous.

    So do you agree that they need to be dealt with in order to prevent faralities? How would you suggest dealing with them that would not inconvenience the non-dangerous drivers?

    As for your data, any data that you have put forward is highly selective data designed to suit your clear bias.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Again, AFAIK, nobody claimed that there weren't some muppet drivers. Andy was again using anecdotes to counter valid conclusions from data. And to slur the vast majority of drivers who are reasonable.

    As for "highly selective" and "designed to suit your clear bias" that's not exactly a refutation. Either my data are accurate, or they are not.

    And if they are not accurate or misleading, you should have no problem countering them, with data. Preferably with practical data and not theoretical claims that rely on terms like "if" to carry them.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Again, that "if" is carrying a lot of weight.

    Firstly, as someone asked above, how do you define an SUV?

    Secondly, is this a practical, realistic concern for an individual driver? Given that have the basis data for all-cause fatalities, in order to show a practical concern, not a theoretical one, you need to show how often children die as a result of collisions with SUVs who would have survived had they caused a collision with a car.

    I suspect the number would go from ~3 incidents per billion vehicle-kilometres to a figure far, far lower.

    And we cannot leave aside that claims about the supposed dangers of SUVs in Ireland are inherently linked to others, and that even if we replaced every SUV with a Toyota Aygo, the demonisation of drivers in certain quarters would continue, the usual suspects would just move on to some other demand for more taxes, more regulations, more restrictions, more enforcement and so forth.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 53,867 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Secondly, is this a practical, realistic concern for an individual driver?

    no, it's a practical, realistic concern for an individual pedestrian. again with the steering wheel view of the world.

    you need to show how often children die as a result of collisions with SUVs who would have survived had they caused a collision with a car.

    GUESS WHAT? i've good news. the research is in! children are nearly twice as like likely to be killed if an SUV hits them. you seem to think this news is 'theoretical'; it's not the result of some fancy computer modelling, it's research based on actual collision data involving (IIRC) 600k collisions.

    if you're expecting any research to be able to state with any degree of precision that 'in this specific scenario, a child would have survived if hit by a car but not if hit by an SUV', you don't understand how research works. it's not an individually predictive tool.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,911 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The point I was making, perhaps somewhat clumsily, was that it is a bigger than average and significantly heavier than average motorbike, which mirrors the danger of bigger and heavier SUVs.



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