Why is property management so unregulated and corrupt

06-05-2025 02:37AM #1

I have been going through some very stressful events in the apartment complex I live in.

Our complex is made up of private owners and a vulture fund who own just under half the apartments.

The vulture fund has managed to get the majority vote so they have basically taken over the running of the complex as the main OMC

and the property service provider are basically working for them.

As a board member I discovered that the property service provider were lying and covering up for the vulture fund

I attended last years AGM and questioned the PSP and VF about the lies and about their management of the buildings.

The vulture fund didn't answer any of my questions and the PSP denied that they lied.

When the minutes were sent out, they falsified the minutes but there was a recording of the AGM as well.

I sent them an email telling them that the minutes were biased and falsified and asked for the electronic copy of the AGM

to be distributed to the owners.

They ignored me.

I have read up about what legal rights I have and I am legally entitled to ask for the electronic copy of the minutes.

I wanted to go to the PSP regulator but I feel this would be too trivial and that the regulator would tell me that the PSP is just doing what they are told.

The OMC is basically unregulated as any wrong doings have to go to the circuit court which would be way too costly and time consuming.

There is no proper regulatory system so its no wonder the entire property management system is like the wild west and corrupt as anything.

Why is this allowed to happen in 2025.

There should be a part of the Gardai dealing with fraud within property management who can look into these things and police them or at least caution them.

SupaCat95 · 06-05-2025 05:16AM

This is Ireland (Similar to "this is Africa"). This is why I always stayed away from apartments. Between the owners and property service provied you are relying on them to provide essential services.

TThe only solace I can offer you is when there is open fiancial fraud, unashamed drug taking, (two other items that I am not allowed mention on boards) massive inflation, straying from religion, lack of faith in the justice system, incompetence of civil servants, inflated education,young men refuse to do military service. etc etc.... This sets the conditions for the parabel of Sodom and Gomorrah. IE once a society becomes decadent and wasteful another crowd arrive and take over and it happens loads of times in both history and religious texts. Yes there is a flood coming and it will be nasty.

Mellor · 06-05-2025 06:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058408839/why-is-property-management-so-unregulated-and-corrupt

Where is the fraud in the above?

The OMC is all of the owners collectively. If the VC owns half the properties, they are half the OMC.
That gives them a lot of voting power, but that's not fraud. They simple have the largest interest.
The PSP works for the OMC. The PSP doing what the OMC wants is not fraud.

You've alleged that the PSP lied. They denied it. You wanted it in the minutes, their minutes were bias. What proof did you have? If it was just your word that they lied, I doubt anyone would minute these things.

OMC, PMP, property management is full of dodginess. But mainly mainly because most people don't care and the people that do have to do everything, so do what they want.

Allinall · 06-05-2025 07:07AM

What's your actual issue with the way the complex is being managed?

Start from that point and see if you can get support for your specific issues.

Kaybaykwah · 06-05-2025 08:52AM

I tried making sense of what you wrote, but…

As mellor stated, where is the proof that minutes were doctored, or items not noted if you have not seen a document?

Kaybaykwah · 06-05-2025 08:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123421379#Comment_123421379

How can you put the word of God in doubt and call Sodom amd Gomorrah a parable?

Shameful!

markpb · 06-05-2025 09:18AM

There are a few important points to be clear about.

The shareholders vote for people to represent the on the board of directors. If someone owns multiple units in a complex, they are entitled to multiple votes on the OMC. That's not corruption. It may be abusive under s212 Companies Act 2014 but I've never heard of that being used in an OMC case. I think anyone making that claim would need legal representation and argue it in court themselves.

The managing agent reports to the board of directors, not the shareholders. They do not take instructions from the property owners, even if they own a majority of shares in the company. If you think they're not acting properly, you can complain to the PRA (see below) or you can take a vote of the board of directors to end your contract with them. Some people think that the shareholders would need to approve that decision but I'm not sure if that's true.

The company secretary is personally, legally responsible for the accurate minute-taking of meetings. That person is appointed by the board of directors. It may be someone in the MA or the BoD but not necessarily. Managing Agents seem to take on this duty in a lot of cases but they're not always the company secretary. It's worth finding out who yours is.

The PRA investigates any complaint made about a regulated person or firm. If you make a complaint about a managing agent, the PRA will investigate it. If a finding is made against the regulated PSP, the PRA are responsible for enforcement, not the person making the complaint.

06-05-2025 12:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123421733#Comment_123421733

The proof that the written minutes were doctored is in the electronics version of the AGM which was recorded.

That's why I requested that the electronic recording of the minutes which is the electronic recording of the AGM be circulated instead of the written minutes so people can listen to it for themselves. They totally altered and manipulated what I said at the meeting and they also left out several key points from the meeting which should have been in the minutes.

They left out parts where the chair muted a current board member and secretary when she was telling everyone something that they didn't want her to tell us. She's part of the problem because she only told us the information because she wasn't expecting the questions she was asked and she caved. So she would have been happy later when they falsified the minutes to make it look like she said something really smart and upstanding.

There were people at the meeting shouting at the chair to unmute the board member when she muted her.

They left that out entirely and said the board member said something entirely different from what she said.

Its an absolute disgrace, they're all implicit but at the same time, its not big enough a deal to take it to MUD.

I have sent my response to them to the PRA but I doubt they'll care or do anything.

I also sent the board and PSP an email to prove that the PSP were lying and they ignored my email. Like it never happened.

Kaybaykwah · 06-05-2025 01:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123422472#Comment_123422472

Yes, now I get a better picture of what you meant…

What items were discussed that angered you? Budgetary allowances and the like?

06-05-2025 02:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123422627#Comment_123422627

I already replied to marpb on what this was about but it seems to have been deleted.

Its to do with funding and safety issues.

It might not be fraud, maybe conflict of interest is a better word.

But there is a lot of lying going on.

Ray Palmer · 06-05-2025 03:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123422796#Comment_123422796

Yeah you should be careful with words and accusation. Still find it weird you can't say exactly what the issue is. You are full entitled to see the accounts. You certainly don't have the right to stand on chairs in a meeting shouting accusations. The board certainly don't have to have you hear everything they say and can mute what they are saying.

In terms of your issue with minutes you should check what the management company agreement says about minutes. I doubt it says anything about audio recordings and just says written notes. There could possible be GDPR issue but they may be able to record for note taking and then dispose of the recording.

An investment company is not a vulture fund unless it buys distressed assets at knock down prices. Is that what this company did?

From what you described you sound unreasonable and less than polite

3DataModem · 06-05-2025 03:26PM

I think you need to be clear on what exactly is being done that is wrong to you?

Apartments (and other multi-unit developments) like any other company are subject to company law, i.e. a large shareholder cannot disenfranchise or enrich themselves at the expense of a small shareholder. There is a fair bit of regulation about this, and in the case of MUDs like this the management company has a lot of special obligations.

When you say they are "lying and covering up" what exactly do you mean? The reality is that if a group of owners get together and form a majority they can make a lot of decisions on behalf of the whole development, this is unavoidable, and generally pretty reasonable.

06-05-2025 06:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123422992#Comment_123422992

So how would you see it if the large shareholder who manage the entire complex only fireproof their own apartments and leave over half the apartment complex out of the fireproofing so that they can get the tax breaks? With the PSP assisting them with their fireproofing instead of reporting them to the authorities and then the PSP denying that they knew anything about the fireproofing until after it is done even though they coordinated for them.

06-05-2025 06:32PM

….

06-05-2025 06:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123422935#Comment_123422935

This is funny 😁, nobody stood on chairs and shouted, the meeting was remote.

The chair is an abbreviation for chairperson.

The people were calling out at her remotely to stop muting the board member (secretary) while she was telling us information we asked her. I didnt call out at all, i was sitting there quietly because I knew exactly what she was doing. I can assure you, I am very polite.

We are all fecked if they are just recording the AGM for note taking if the notes are falsified.

They did buy the apartments less than half price from NAMA. They are indeed VF.

markpb · 06-05-2025 08:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123423456#Comment_123423456

I’m no expert but IMHO a lot depends on how that work was carried out and how it was paid for.

If the OMC paid for it out of general funds, that might constitute a shareholder oppression case. You’d probably have to pursue it yourself legally, the CEA might be able to give you guidance on that. However, OMCs routinely prioritise work or split work across multiple years for budget reasons so you might not immediately have a case.

If the MA undertook that work at the instruction of the board of directors, there might be nothing wrong with that because their job is to work for the directors. If that’s what happened, I doubt the PRA would have any competency. The MA’s job is facilitate the orders of the directors, not to enforce company law.

You mentioned tax breaks but they would usually only apply if the investment fund paid for the work themselves. If the investment fund paid for the work or made additional payments to the OMC to cover the work, I don’t see any major problem with that.

I’m less sure about where you stand on the minutes and recordings. I doubt you have any legal right to the recording, at least not under Company Law. Ultimately, the secretary has to produce the minutes and if you think they’re factually incorrect, you’d need to take a case against them. Again, the CEA might give some guidance on that. Be careful with that one though, minutes can be as simple as a list of topics discussed and decisions reached. They don’t (AFAIK) have to be a detailed list of everything that was said and that happened.

07-05-2025 12:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123423835#Comment_123423835

I can absolutely understand your point of view but these people want to have their cake and eat it.

They want to rule and own all aspect of the management of the complex for all apartments and decide what happens with the money we pay but when it suits them they then want to opt out of taking responsibility for all apartments and just get their own apartments fireproofed to get their tax breaks.

In my opinion it was fine for them to get a fire survey done on their own apartments but as soon as they found defects in their apartments, they should have expanded the survey to all apartments and fireproofed us all together.

They decided to levy us and use the sinking funds to get lift belts replaced (that wern't giving any trouble)

So if the private owners had have gone along with it and got surveyed and fireproofed at the time, we then would have had the levy for the lift belts, no sinking funds to pay towards the fireproofing plus our yearly fee on top of all that (our yearly fee is almost 3 grand).

We now have just over half of the apartments without fireproofing.

We asked them for their survey results and they told us that their fireproofing is none of our business and that we are third parties and not entitled to know anything about their surveys/fireproofing.

Then when it came to our surveys, the same manager from the VF got to propose our fire survey. How does that work and we all had to be levied to pay for that under the VF decision.

I would have thought that our fire survey proposal would be none of their business but it turns out that she is the one with the majority vote and is sitting on the board so it has to go through her.

Its a complete joke. The secretary told us at the AGM that the VF manager proposed our survey with her and as soon as she told us this, she was muted on Teams by the chair (PSP).

I agree with you about the minutes, they should be short and sweet with just basic important points made and instructions.

But they wern't, it was like they googled what they should have said in response to my questions and pasted the answers into the minutes. Totally fabricated and long winded nonsense with some of it being petty.

The thing that bothers me about the minutes being falsified is that I was mentioned in the minutes as saying things I never said.

They also left out some key points that should've been in there but it would've painted them in a negative light.

Kaisr Sose · 07-05-2025 01:28AM

This sounds like a mess going forward.

Building regulations regarding fireproofing in an apartment complex is everyones business. The OMC shops be ensuring all apartments and blocks are protected to the same standard otherwise getting fire certification and insurance for the whole development is problematic and needlessly complex.

A VF or corporate owner of multiple properties should not be able to commission their own work on theire units. They do not own the voids, ducts or common areas. All this work shouslnbe collectively sanctioned and managed/contracted by the OMC with costs shared equally by all owners

What you outline appears to the the opposite of this ? Were these fire works manda8works prescribed by fire officer or insurance company?

07-05-2025 01:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123424463#Comment_123424463

The insurance company doesn't know about it as far as Im aware.

I don't think our fire proofing is as serious as other complex's but there is some work to be done.

3DataModem · 07-05-2025 02:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123423456#Comment_123423456

OK, this is in breach of company law, as well as MUD law, so that's your pathway. You'll need a solicitor.

07-05-2025 03:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123424473#Comment_123424473

We dont have the money for solicitors and court cases.

The PSP have told us we have been put in a queue to be funded but they have also told us that we probably wont get our survey money back and have expressed doubts that we will get funded. There are only two reasons why we wouldnt be funded, lack of maintenance of the buildings or mismanagement.

I have spoken to the remediation team working for the government and they told us we would be funded so why are the PSP telling us we mightnt be? I have asked this question and they ignored me.

mrslancaster · 07-05-2025 08:08AM

”So how would you see it if the large shareholder who manage the entire complex only fireproof their own apartments and leave over half the apartment complex out of the fireproofing so that they can get the tax breaks? With the PSP assisting them with their fireproofing instead of reporting them to the authorities and then the PSP denying that they knew anything about the fireproofing until after it is done even though they coordinated for them.”

Is your worry about the interim scheme for fire safety that’s funded through the housing agency and how the funding was managed in your complex? Afaik, when the OMC makes the application, the whole building is considered at the same time ie. the individual apartments and common areas, so presumably your apartment was included. If works in your complex are partly done, presumably the funding was authorised for the entire unless there are several blocks and the OMC applied for each block separately? Is that a possibility? The funding depends on the type and cause of defects so check that your block qualifies.

Also, the HA announced delays in the interim scheme because the procurement process is being amended, but if the OMC are not giving you the information as to why you might not be funded, could you contact the HA? They might be able to help or give you details of any funding already approved. Usually grant funding is paid after the works are completed so are the OMC organising the work in stages? Lots of questions.

Some useful links on this page:

https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-housing-local-government-and-heritage/services/interim-remediation-scheme-for-fire-safety-defects-in-apartments-and-duplexes/#:~:text=Owners'%20Management%20Companies%20(OMCs),through%20this%20Interim%20Remediation%20Scheme.

07-05-2025 01:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123424695#Comment_123424695

Thanks very much for your help. I was in touch with the HA last year but Im was preoccupied with my dad being terminally ill at the time. I will get back in touch with them today.

Dial Hard · 07-05-2025 02:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123423462#Comment_123423462

Serious Handforth Parish Council meeting vibes off this…

"You have no authority here, Jackie Weaving!"

mrslancaster · 07-05-2025 04:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123425809#Comment_123425809

I don’t know for sure if funding is disbursed before or after on this scheme, but usually what happens with grant funding is payment is made when the work is completed and signed off by the authorised provider. Sorry to hear about your dad. Hope you get this sorted.

07-05-2025 04:29PM

Thank you

Why is property management so unregulated and corrupt

Comments