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Presidential Election 2025

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,797 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Every candidate this year should answer a straight question - if the Taoiseach loses the support of a majority in the Dáil while you are President and asks you for a dissolution, who can talk to you about it?

    No one here knows the right answer.

    Keep up, Caquas! I've already answered this question. He can talk to anyone about it. Or not, as he chooses. And their are obvious reasons, already discussed, why he might (and probably should) decide not to talk to the leader of the opposition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I should have answered your final question, though the answer is obvious.

    The question facing President Hillery that night was whether the Dail could elect an alternative Government. Only Haughey could confirm to the President whether or not he could be elected Taoiseach - anyone else's opinion on that matter was mere hearsay. The President would look very foolish if he didn't get direct confirmation from Haughey before refusing a dissolution and if Haughey's bid to become Taoiseach came undone. Given the abiding bitterness between them, it would have been sufficient for Haughey to speak to the President's closest advisor but, one way or another, the Aras needed to hear from Haughey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Ah, we are agreed! There is no problem phoning the President but of course he's not obliged to talk to anyone.

    So, as far as anyone knew in 1990, Lenihan committed no offence by phoning the Aras in January 1982 (his offence was that he got caught lying about it). Bullying the ADC or harassing the President were raised as issues afterwards.

    But do keep up, Peregrine - Francie says no one looking for party political favors can call the President. No problem for, say, the Iranian Ambassador - they have factions, not parties - but a real headstratcher for the Council of State which is full of politicians, active and retired.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,648 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     Lenihan committed no offence by phoning the Aras in January 1982 (his offence was that he got caught lying about it).

    Nobody claimed he committed an 'offence'.

    Lenihan knew what he had done was inappropriate and therefore wrong, that is why in the context of the interview he didn't want to admit to it.
    In the context of the earlier interview with a student and blowing about his influence there was no problem admitting to it.

    There would have been no controversy if he hadn't done something he shouldn't have. He then kept the spade in hand and dug some more by lying about it and getting caught doing that. A perfect storm so to speak.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Wonderful - we agree there was no offence in phoning the Aras. And so does Peregrinus. Of course, Lenihan's lies in 1990 were a serious breach of trust (and it is no excuse that FG laid a trap).

    You say the phone call was "inappropriate" but Fine Gael and Labour went much further in 1990. They said Lenihan was "undermining the independence of the Presidency" and had "violated constitutional conventions". I was always baffled by those claims and no one here can stand over them now. Do they think President Hillery was hiding under his desk when Lenihan phoned him? What convention did they invent in 1990 and does it still apply?

    At least we have made some progress here. Let's see what the candidates have to say.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,648 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody disputed that there was no ‘offence’. Tgere were never any charges proposed.

    ‘Inappropriate’ because it undermined tge independence of the President. This was not invented by FG.

    I ‘stand over’ them. The pressure FF put on Hillery was inappropriate

    It would still be inappropriate.

    *We made the ‘progress’ many posts ago, you are just reading properly now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,797 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ah, we are agreed! There is no problem phoning the President but of course he's not obliged to talk to anyone.

    No, we're not agreed. The President decides who he consults or takes advice from; it doesn't follow that everyone has a right to offer unsolicited advice; still less to badger the president with repeated, unsolicited phone calls that they know to be unwanted. That was improper, and Lenihan knew it was improper, which is why he denied having done it.

    So, as far as anyone knew in 1990, Lenihan committed no offence by phoning the Aras in January 1982 (his offence was that he got caught lying about it). Bullying the ADC or harassing the President were raised as issues afterwards.

    Lenihan committed no criminal offence by phoning the President — no-one at any point has suggested that he did. But the phone calls to the President on behalf of Haughey were improper.

    But do keep up, Peregrine - Francie says no one looking for party political favors can call the President. No problem for, say, the Iranian Ambassador - they have factions, not parties - but a real headstratcher for the Council of State which is full of politicians, active and retired.

    Francie speaks for himself. I have not said that the problem with Haughey's calls was that he was seekign party advantage. The problem was more fundamental than that.

    I'm puzzled that you think it woudl be no problem for the Iranian ambassador to ring the President to urge a particular course of action on him, but I suppose it just underlines that, fundamentally, you don't get this, or get how it is supposed to work. The Iranian ambassador's proper interlocutor is the Department of Foreign Affairs. If he wanted to do something purely formal like, say, invite the President to a national day celebration at the embassy, or if he wanted to correspond about detals of an upcoming state visit (unlikely as that might be), even that would be done through the Department of Foreign Affairs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,797 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Only if the President was open to refusing a dissolution (and, even then, only if he thought the alternative was a Haughey-led minority government). Which was a position for the President to adopt, not a decision to be pressed on him by the leader of the opposition.

    I think the most that Haughey could properly have done is to send a message via the Secretary to the President to the effect that he was available for consultation, if the President wished to consult him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,478 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Why do you think Lenihan lied about making the calls?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    As I said in post 957

    Why did Lenihan lie about the phone call in 1982? Lenihan looked like a shoo-in for the Aras because he was polling at 45% of first preferences. But he still needed to consolidate that support and win a decent share of transfers. 

    Above all, like everything else in that era, this election was overshadowed by Haughey. Lenihan had to prove that he would not be Haughey stooge in the Aras (i.e. not continue to act like Haughey's Tánaiste). Lenihan understood that the calls he made to the Aras on Haughey's behalf in 1982 raised a fundamental question - would he as President exercise his most important prerogative i.e. refuse to dissolve the Dail if Haughey asked him after being defeated in the Dáil. So he lied about 1982 and got caught out by the tape. The Opposition, especially FG who laid this trap, made it a hanging offence and ever since there has been a weird notion that phone calls to the Aras are somehow verboten. There also even a whiff of lese-majeste about it.

    Obviously, Lenihan couldn't explain these motives publicly so people just assumed he felt guilty about the phone call. And in the eyes of the Opposition, he was guilty of a heinous offence - being Haughey's sidekick.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,648 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They all denied they had phoned. What was Haughey afraid of when he denied it too? The exact same thing as Lenihan was afraid of - he knew it was inappropriate and therefore wrong and damaging.

    You've picked a peculiar hill to die on here and exacerbate it by continuing to die on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    The President has "absolute discretion" in refusing a dissolution but we have a perfect right to criticise his choice (especially now that Michael D. has politicised the Aras).

    I think he should have reserved his decision that night in 1982 and sought clarity in the parliamentary chaos after Bruton's Budget collapse. At the very least, that would have shown he was willing to exercise his prerogative in the proper circumstances. Is the prerogative a dead letter if no President has even considered its use?

    The situation was reversed later that year when Haughey's government was defeated. Hillery granted a dissolution to Charlie but Hillery would not have taken offence if Garret had rung the Aras to say he could form a government.

    The relevant question now is - in what circumstances would the next President refuse a dissolution? No President has had a realistic option since 1982. Albert resigned rather than give Mary Robinson the choice in 1994 when a palace coup brought John Bruton and the Rainbow to power based on the flimsiest claims (Pat Rabbitte's "document …that will rock the foundations of this society to its very roots").

    I doubt if the current Dáil could survive if it (i.e. Michael Lowry) withdrew support from the rotating-Taoiseach but during a two-term Presidency, there may well be the option to refuse a dissolution for some future Dáil and we should know how the candidates would approach this issue. I certainly wouldn't vote for any wilting violet who hid under a desk when the Leader of the Opposition rang up the Aras.

    Post edited by Caquas on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,478 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That's not my memory of how things played out at all. I wouldn't claim to have been a seasoned political observer in those days, but my memory of things was about interference with the presidential role, and more importantly, being caught in the lie.

    Funny to see Michael D on the panel with Garrett and Lenihan discussing presidential matters. Who'd have thunk that he'd end up being the most popular President ever. He got a lovely warm welcome from the audience at Ralph McTell's gig in the NCH this week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Haughey was backing his candidate so obviously he took the same (false) line and for the same reason - Lenihan needed to appear independent of Haughey.

    Haughey was never going to say "Brian didn't call the Aras that night but I did because there was nothing wrong with doing so". That would be tantamount to saying "Brian is a minion I wouldn't trust to make a phone call but when he is Presdient, I'll have a hot line to the Aras" 😋



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,648 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    WHY didn't Haughey (and Lenihan) just say they did nothing wrong. they phoned the President as they were entitled to do.

    They answer is in almost every one of my posts - because they knew it was inappropriate and therefore wrong and therefore troublesome for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Au Contraire! Michael D. is our least popular President.

    In the latest poll, he has an approval rating of just 64%. In contrast, Mary McAleese was on 92% approval in 2011 (astonishing considering that FF, the party which first nominated her, was imploding at the time) and Mary Robinson's ratings as President were also around 90%. I don't have polls for earlier Presidents but there was rarely any criticism of the incumbent.

    Of course Michael D. is highly popular with his own crowd - Ralph McTell gig in the NCH 🤣

    They love that he politicised the Presidency, discarding any inconvenient Constitutional convention (while we're debating a phone call in 1982!) but they will live to rue the day because eventually the dangerous precedents he set will open the door to someone very different, maybe even the person who will succeed him later this year.

    But yeah, "interference with the President's independence" was the basic charge against Lenihan. For a phone call 8 years earlier that wasn't put through to the President. Those were the days, my friend!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,478 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Oh, you're being just slightly economical with the truth there about Michael D.

    You 'forgot' to mention about how he got the largest personal mandate in the history of the Republic of Ireland, with 822,566 first-preference votes in his second election. You 'forgot' to mention how he was the most popular Irishman (not politician, mind you, just Irishman) in a large YouGov 2019 popularity poll.

    He's everyone's favourite Granddad, a Granddad who says all the right things, and knows when to speak up on the important things.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Surely numbers of voters are not important? Considering increases in the electorate. Eamon de Valera had a higher percentage of the vote for his second term.

    As for everyone's favourite grandad! For those who merely look at his appearance perhaps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,781 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    A great President for calling out skullduggery. A man of the people for sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,648 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    He has been an outstanding President and has gotten the stamp of approval from the people.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Now who's being economical with the truth?

    It is true, as you say, that Michael D. was the most popular Irishman named in that one-off 2019 YouGov poll - but with the support of only 6.92% of those surveyed and well behind Katie Taylor and Vicky Phelan.

    It is also true that he garnered the largest number of first preference votes in any Irish election - when only one rival had ever won an election.

    First cast the beam out of thine own eye!

    In view of your information, I see that I was being economical with my invective. I should have said that Michael D. in his second term has squandered much of the respect and admiration which has traditionally attached to the highest office in the State. It is particularly deplorable because his immediate predecessors, Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese, added greatly to popular esteem for the Presidency by playing a vital role in national life while carefully respecting the limits of the role.

    Michael D. supporters don't want to hear this but they will rue the day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Calling out skullduggery? Don't you mean praising tyrants?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,648 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It is true, as you say, that Michael D. was the most popular Irishman named in that one-off 2019 YouGov poll - but with the support of only 6.92% of those surveyed and well behind Katie Taylor and Vicky Phelan.

    Fairly sure Katie and Vicky weren’t entered in the most popular Irishman category.

    I haven’t seen the ‘popular esteem’ for the current President dipping. Sure, he got up a few noses. Still very popular though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,104 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Suggesting Michael D is the most popular president ever is a stretch but I don't think it's correct to say he's not popular.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,569 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Claiming his personal vote on re-election being an indicator of his popularity relative to the two Marys is disingenuous in the exteme - given Mary Robinson chose not to run for a second term, and Mary McAleese was re-elected unopposed without needing a public vote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,781 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I don't believe he praised Genociders. That's what is angering a lot on here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,648 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    He’s not hidebound to blindly support western aggression and their not inconsiderable tyranny.

    He calls things as he sees them. The good and the bad of everyone and side.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I didn't say he was unpopular. I said he was the least popular i.e. his popularity is less than his predecessors.

    I believe this is because during the second term which he promised not to seek, he has alienated those people who want the President to respect the Constitution, especially the authority of the Government in matters of foreign policy (Cuba, Iran etc).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Then he's in the wrong job. As the Constitution says:

     The executive power of the State in or in connection with its external relations shall in accordance with Article 28 of this Constitution be exercised by or on the authority of the Government.



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