Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

So , far right people have a liking for Jews? That'd be a turnaround would it not?

Only Israeli government calls the occupied territories , disputed territories. Though I guess it makes sense for someone so biased to use that term.

I called them disputed territories because they are … disputed. But frankly I don't care that much so … whatever. But you didn't answer my question - what sane leader of Israel would allow potential enemies to get right up to the suburbs of Tel-Aviv? Because this is what a return to the '67 lines would require.

And the far right Israeli Government? Where do they fit into you thesis?

You obviously put your fingers in your ears and jump up and down chanting 'la la la'

So you define "Zionist = racist genocidal bigot" … then I cannot answer your question because we - as I suspected - do not have a common frame of reference.

Anyone in essence who supports Israel as having the right to their own state and self determination is a Zionist. So unless you believe they shouldn't then you're a Zionist I think.

I see on the news that the orchestrated starving of the people of Gaza is being ramped up by Israel.

A war crime, and a crime against humanity.

Shame on them, and shame on every country that is letting this continue without action being taken.

There is absolutely zero justification for this. It's got nothing to do with the despicable attacks of Oct 7th, and cannot be justified.

I see on the news that the orchestrated starving of the people of Gaza is being ramped up by Israel.

@Brendan Bendar / @SeanW / @Straight Talker - so ye agree with this, or any thoughts on it?

Well Lukid are the party of flavour for far right parties in Europe and now attend the meeting of the Patriots for Europe with observer status. They like the killing and slaughter obviously

The woman that is featured in that documentary is evil personified - Theroux has shone a light into the blood lust mindset of these people

I used those words because they reflect my opinion on what you are posting. I do not intend to be disrespectful, I am just expressing my own opinion of what you posted.

FWIW, I wouldn't be writing such long posts if I didn't respect your posts on this thread. I don't agree with some of your interpretations, but I respect the fact that you quote extensively from pretty solid sources to back up a lot of your positions.

Again, there's not a thing I disagree with from the text you quoted from Haaretz. I have no reason to take anything up with them. What I disagree with is your interpretation, which extracts a causation from the text that simply isn't there. They described a sequence of events. You interpreted that to mean that one event was the cause of subsequent events. The word "after" does not mean "due to" or "because". It simply means "subsequently".

Thank you for agreeing that Hamas had been planning the attack for years. That essentially proves the point I'm making, which is that events occurring in internal Israeli politics in the time immediately leading up to the Hamas attack were not the cause of the attack. They <might> have influenced the timing (I have no knowledge or evidence either way, but I can see how they could), but they were not the cause. The attack was always going to happen, even if Likud and their far-right coalition allies were not in power.

No, I do not know that Israel built Hamas tunnels in Gaza. Can you provide any evidence to support that claim please? I am aware of Bibi's decision not to interfere with the funding that Hamas was receiving from other Arab states. But that in no way equates to Israel building tunnels for Hamas.

Yes, There was a massive failure of Israeli intelligence gathering. Again, that's kind of my point when I'm pointing out the degree of planning involved to pull off such a spectacularly successful (in their own terms) operation by Hamas. It was in no way a short-term reaction to events immediately preceding the operation, which is what you are interpreting as being what Harretz are saying.

As I say, the timing <might> have been influenced by events immediately prior. Quite possibly, Hamas might have seen the unrest in Israel in protest at the undermining of judicial authority etc. as a point of weakness to be exploited, timing-wise, particularly with key military personnel being part of the protesting, and openly saying they would refuse to serve:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hundreds-israeli-reservists-vow-refuse-service-if-judicial-overhaul-passes-2023-07-19/

And indeed, the ramping up of settlement plans in the West Bank would have been useful to Hamas to help provoke another uprising in the West Bank after they launched their operation (Hamas were looking to initiate a multi-front war against Israel, and a West Bank uprising would have been extremely beneficial to them). But beyond that, yes, absolutely, the timing was coincidental. The operation was always going to happen, no matter what the Israeli government were doing, or who was in power in Israel.

I suspect we actually agree much more on the fundamentals here than we disagree, from a bigger picture point of view.

What we have here at the moment is two sides which are very badly led.

One of the biggest threats to Israel is Bibi's drive to do whatever is necessary to avoid his corruption charges, and the influence that the ultra-conservative and settler parties have in the Israeli government.

Equally, on the Palestinian side, they are led by a radical outfit (Hamas) that deliberately and successfully provoked a massive response against their people, hoping that it would lead to a multi-front war against Israel. And that has turned out to be a strategic disaster for them (along with some of their allies).

I sense there has been a bit of a shift in western media coverage of Gaza in the last few days. Lots of discussion of the population being deliberately starved and of Israeli war crimes - this seems more pronounced than what we were seeing even a few short weeks ago. This might be how the façade of the terrorist state starts to fall away, slowly but surely.

The absolute nonsense and lies some of those people tell....completely delusional and extremely dangerous.

Thanks for posting.

On the basis of your posts, you'd like to see Gaza ethnically cleansed and taken over by Israel.

"Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"