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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,640 ✭✭✭Xander10




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭flanna01


    You would hardly murder somebody over retrieving a bag of drugs..?

    1. Regardless if seen or not, your word against theirs… It was a bag of knock off ciggies I bought down the pub. You'd be long gone with the 'ciggies' before the Plod turned up, then its all hearsay.

    2. If it was a genuine drug collection point, could anything be worse than leaving a blood splattered corpse on the driveway.. Nothing like drawing attention to yourselves.

    3. The remote location that it was, there would be plenty of abandoned outbuildings dotted along the Peninsula, would you really select a pumphouse in view of several properties?? And also risk the 'who the f*ck are you' by inquisitive neighbours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I wouldn't do it but a drug dealer(user perhaps) would to save themselves jail or trouble anyway I don't think it started out as a desire to murder. You want a spot that's easy to access, dry and near enough to your market. I don't think the pumphouse was in the view of any properties except Sophie's. The person(s) may have been local so no remarks on being around from time to time.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 556 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Main reason a criminal would murder, and not just scarper, is if they could be ID'd by the victim, meaning she knew who they were. If there were criminal activity going on in the vicinity it would have to be someone connected to the area. A randomer wouldn't just roll on up to an unknown location leaving drugs about. The list of suspects wouldn't change very much in this case imo. Wouldn't have to just be drugs either. All sorts of shenanigans can go on, smuggling, backhanders, money laundering etc. Don't think it was criminal activity though imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Good points.

    One other possible adavantage, from Alfie's point of view ( let's assume, for the purpose of this theory, that Alfie was involved) is that he would be able to keep an eye on the pumphouse, whilst not being directly connected to it in the event of it being raided. The next best thing to keeping it on his own property…..and absolutely deniable in the event of discovery.

    Speculative, certainly. But there was pretty large scale drug activity in the area at the time, and a threat to the interests of those involved is a possible motive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Still not buying it…..

    Sophie was bludgeoned until death was achieved (at least until deemed dead so by the murderer)

    I am fully convinced the murder was not planned or intentional.

    I also believe, that Sophie made her way to her death voluntary, and did not fear for her safety on-route.

    We know the gate was open, and we know there was unidentified tire marks left in the area.

    Realistically, somebody was either leaving the properties, or somebody was entering it?

    Now, did Bailey not suggest their was a party going on at Alfie's that fateful night? Could there have been 'guests' coming and going that night / early morning? (Note: Alfie said they both went to bed early and heard nothing else all night)

    Could Bailey have arrived late on and tried to gatecrash the alleged party? If he did, he didn't leave a trace of himself anywhere, not even in the car he was using (Jules car).

    Personally, I think somebody came to the properties for a reason, this was no random opportunist.

    The truth is too be found in the location. The killer had dealings with either Sophie or Alfie that night, he arrived to meet with one of them, and he was known to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I agree that the killing was unplanned. I also agree that Sophie voluntarily left the house and made her way to the gate. There is no evidence that there was party at Alfie's that night.

    I think it unlikely that Bailey arrived late or that he was there at all. Furthermore I don't think the incident happened at night…I think it happened in the morning, in daylight.

    It is quite possible that the perpetrator arrived with the intention of visiting one of the houses.

    But I also think its possible that Alfie himself was involved. There is nothing concrete, as far as I can see, that rules him out whilst there are aspects of his account, that are open to question.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I think the nature of the death is likely the biggest “clue” as to the sort of person who killed her and the reasons why. It was beyond brutal - there’s now certainly a vast collection of criminal knowledge worldwide and held by police forces that could be interrogated by AI in order to produce a profile of the killer and the potential reasons why a person might be killed in such a manner.

    While it wouldn’t be definitive and indeed may well be wrong, it would certainly be a lead to be considered.

    Maybe Bailey fits such a profile - maybe right profile wrong guy? Or right profile and right guy, who knows.

    Leaving aside a mad lunatic who escaped from an asylum for the criminally insane, I’d agree, in all likelihood the person was known to Sophie in some way- this wasn’t a first meeting.

    I’m skeptical it was a drug dealer not known to Sophie- they would tend to flee if came across by a random member of the public - and even if she uncovered his stash of drugs, it’s not like she would have known his name and address- if she confronted him, a quick shove aside or knock over to the ground as he made his escape would have been the most she would have experienced in my view.

    I believe in the past that Gardai have said that the motive of her attack that night/morning was sexual. I wonder do they still believe that.

    As for a “hitman” theory- I don’t think you could possibly rule it out- was it a sophisticated murder, made to look spontaneous? Well there doesn’t appear to be a hint of forensic evidence of the killer left at the scene - I don’t believe that’s an easy thing to achieve . A hitman using a gun would obviously lead to a path in France so for that reason alone, if it was a hitman ,they had to do the killing in such a manner that would not lead back to there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Your last point is particularly interesting.

    Most posters seem to dismiss the "hit man" theory for precisely that reason - it does'nt look anything like a professional hit. However, you are right insofar as a real professional would, perhaps, want it to look like a random attack.

    If, say, Sophie had been shot - I think Daniel would have, immediately, been top of the list of suspects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,289 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Would Sophie have pulled her boots on and venture out to a stranger?

    I believe she knew her attacker(s) and once the decision was made that she had to be killed to prevent her from identifying them, it was always going to be a brutal killing, using what was to hand. They didn't come prepared for a confrontation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “If, say, Sophie had been shot - I think Daniel would have, immediately, been top of the list of suspects.”

    Yeah I edited my post as you were quoting it to add similar. I doubt that Gardai got enough access to those they wished to speak to in France in order to either rule them in or out - in the absence of a definitive outcome in this case, “France” will always stay in the mix as a potential place from which the killer originated



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,640 ✭✭✭Xander10


    Begs the question, what would he/she/they have been up to to require such a drastic response?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭flanna01


    This is the million dollar question isn't it…??

    Murder is a serious crime that brings a life sentence automatically..

    Given the fact that the killer rained countless blows down onto Sophie's head with a concrete block, this has to point towards an intentional death - hence to murder.

    But as it a knee jerk reaction?

    Did the first rock (smaller stone) cause unexpected damage? Did it produce a gash that resulted in a heavy blood flow?

    Did an angry Sophie threaten police charges, prison, like changing consequences for the person who had just assaulted her..? (We know she had a hot temper).

    Was the perpetrator now in a predicament with only seconds to decide his next course of action?

    If he bolts, it's only time till the Gards come knocking at his door. How will the community react to him? What about his Wife, Family & Friends… (Sophie still screaming blue murder at this point as she props herself up against the gate)

    Knowing that his life in on the tipping point of oblivion, he spontaneously makes an irrational decision.

    He pushed Sophie into the briers, thus keeping her entangled and buying time to search for a killing aid.

    Using the nearest object available, he sets about quietening Sophie, the more he bludgeons her with a block, the more he knows its all or nothing now.

    The whole episode probably took less than ten minutes from start to finish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,179 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    What a ridiculous comment.

    Was the brutal murder a 'knee jerk reaction'?

    Element of victim blaming here also - 'we know Sophie had a hot temper' - who knew that GBH might upset someone eh?

    Just odd, and not constructive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    It’s back to the Garda theory of a sexual motive -.one of an attacker spurned by the victim -well that’s one explanation that would fit- and probably one of the few scenarios that makes any “sense”, notwithstanding the senselessness of the murder itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    The injuries on her body will have given investigating officers a sense of how the attack began and then how it progressed. If defensive wounds exist, which is likely, they may potentially indicate how the physical altercation began and potentially indicate a motive- the more extensive wounds will then show how the assault escalated - the Gardai’s stated motive as being sexual must have come about from the analysis of physical injuries - they will certainly tell a “story”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,836 ✭✭✭FishOnABike




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,836 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Given the conduct of the original investigation I would say it is a very large presumption to assume the Gardai's stated motive came about from any analysis or deductive process.

    One would hope the current cold case review has learned from past institutional mistakes and is looking at things with fresh unbiased minds, not jumping to any conclusions that are not fully supported by evidence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I’m with you on that point alright and I assume whatever modern best practice in in palace today for such investigations is being followed. However, even leaving aside some of the key stone cop idiocy of the original investigation, I would have thought that an analysis of the injuries would tell a “story” that would be hard to disprove?
    maybe they got it completely wrong and are now thinking completely differently but even back then, a medical professional would have been able to provide some accurate guidance on the injuries and how and when they likely occurred throughout the attack



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