Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Telling trans athletes to “just compete in the men’s (or womens) category” ignores the entire purpose of gendered divisions in sport, which is to ensure fairness and inclusion. If trans athletes are consistently barred from the category aligned with their gender identity, then yes, they are effectively being excluded.

Also, the idea that this is about “males vs females” is a reductive binary that doesn’t reflect the biological diversity or medical nuance we see in sports science.

If this were truly about fairness, you'd be demanding more data, not calling for blanket bans rooted in fear.

Sporting categories have traditionally been based on biological sex, but the landscape is evolving. As science and social understanding of gender and sex develop, many now recognise that gender and gender identity play a role in athletes' experiences and performances, making it a more nuanced conversation. To dismiss the growing body of evidence and ignore the complexity of the issue is to ignore the actual experience of trans athletes in sports. It’s not just about biology, it’s about recognizing the broader social and scientific contexts in modern competition.

She's clearly obsessed with the issue of fairness in sport. That wouldn't be enough for me personally to justify a vote for someone who is clearly unfit to hold any public office due to the contempt he displayed for the institutions of state during and immediately after his previous term, but that's democracy in action. And her stated dedication to truth is at odds with Trump's 30k lies (probably more now, I lost count). Against that, she was forced out of a job with presumably a seven figure salary for opinions that she expressed in a personal capacity on social media, because those opinions didn't match the company view. She turned down $1M in severance as she would have had to sign an NDA. She has suffered for speaking the truth as she sees it, though admittedly she could afford the hit. You previously seemed ok with people losing their jobs for expressing opinions that you disagreed with, or at least you didn't deny it when I qeried you.

I abhor her use of the R word against ideas she disagreed with, just as I abhor your use of the word against a person you disagree with. (Full disclosure: I have used the word in both contexts in the distant past, so maybe I'm a hypocrite). Both are bad, but one is worse than the other. Again though, with the statement "Rant 6 on that chart is interesting for many reasons" you have continued with the lazy debating, by neither saying why you consider it a rant, or elaborating on those many interesting reasons.

And again, "crack pot conspiracy theories", with no elaboration or supporting information. What do you think of her views on fairness in women's sports?

If trans athletes are consistently barred from the category aligned with their gender identity, then yes, they are effectively being excluded.

How many categories should we have? 167? Jaysus, they'll have to push the Olympics out to once a decade😀!

A mistake on my part, the study didn't use V02 max for measurement. It used FEV1:FVC ratios (forced expiratory volume in 1 second and forced vital capacity) which can have an impact on cardiovascular performance.

And now I go down the rabbit hole of finding V02 max results for similar studies. Thanks for that.

Lets put tyson furey on hormonal treatmenet for two years or John Jones and put them against the top biological female boxer or top biological ufc fighter and see if they are balanced so. They would kill or paralyze their biological female opponents with one punch.

Lets put Messi or Ronaldo on hormonal treatment for two years and see how they fair in the womens soccer. They'd get 10+ goals a game even at nearly 40.

The australian womens team lost 7-0 to a group of u15's males small local team in the USA in soccer.

Common sense has to prevail somewhere. I have transgender friends but when it comes to sports lets not be utterly stupid.

Is there anything about strength, power or weight in any of these studies????

What are you trying to get at here.

Mixing up sex with gender is a big problem. It muddies the waters hugely.

Sex - biology

Gender - behaviour

These studies were posted many moons ago when I noticed similar, they'll undoubtedly come up again. Your conclusion matched. They didn't seem particularly well written at the time with the data and conclusions at odds with each other, reminds me of the "non-addictive" study used by Perdue for OxyContin (though at least there was some testing done here).

I'm afraid you'll have to take responsibility for your current location - I hope the rabbits are treating you well😀.

Tbf I'm a bit sceptical regarding some lab measures - I've been told I have the lungs of a severe asthmatic, and with an FEV1 of only 70% average for my age group, and FVC of 125% of normal, I'd look really bad on that measure (this goes back about 25 years when I was at peak fitness). On the other hand, in one of my VO2 max tests around the same time I surpassed former world marathon record holder Derek Clayton, though I never got within 40 min of his best race time. Admittedly my marathon running came a lot later, but I was never more than club standard as a cyclist or a runner.

I can't recall the exact quote from Sean Kelly, but it was something along the lines of there being no lab test for how much you could make yourself or the other guys suffer.

Fortunately, other measures do translate better - power etc.

Good lord, how vile.

A feminist is only one who shares his - a man's - views.

There is no "growing body of evidence" that shows that trans women's hearts and lungs reduce in size to the female averages, nor that the Q-angle (quadriceps, due to the different pelvic structures of men and women) changes, nor that height changes, once the final adult height has been reached.

And final height doesn't change either - except for young people who have been put on puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones so young that, to be blunt, they're likely to have so many other health issues that they're never going to be taking part in any serious level of sport anyway. Look at Jazz Jennings who exemplifies the problem for young boys, and it's generally even worse for girls put on testosterone.

Moreover even cross sex hormone treatment, which admittedly does have an "evening-up" effect, is so variable in its effects on individuals that taking these into account fully would require a system of handicaps more complex than in golf. Everything would become a massive handicap race, and it would still be impossible to tell whether someone had won a race by 0.2 sec or jumped 20 cm higher than their competitor because they were actually better or just because the algorithm hadn't got it exactly right.

The Q-angle is only one example of the differences in male and female athletes. Height and muscle mass is another: muscle mass is changed by hormone treatment - but if we could correlate gain or loss precisely depending on drugs taken/length of treatment etc, there'd be no need to ban athletes for failed urine tests: you could just calculate the amounts in their body and handicap accordingly, right?

that first one was discussed in this thread a few years ago, they were literally advertising on twitter for applicant saying 'would you like to influence government policy, volunteer'

They knew the result they wanted and were working backwards from there.