Irish Rugby peaked in 2023 and is now in steady decline. A Very Barron decade ahead

the QF wasnt the week after the scotland game though, there was a free week and the scotland game in between

Yeah there were three weeks between the SA and NZ games, and I don't think we picked up any significant injuries in the SA game, so I'm not sure where the idea comes from that NZ beat us because we beat SA.

We had a very good RWC, the margins between us, NZ and SA were razor thin.

I actually thought we played better against NZL than we did against SA funnily enough.

The big difference for me was while SA were still good, not their best performance of course but still good, NZL’s performance was probably the best 80 minute performance from any side in that RWC. Ireland could have played better of course but I feel continuing it was a “bottle job” or anything like that is not giving NZL enough respect for their performance.

I agree, we had the beating of the AB's on the day but didn't deliver. I also agree that Leinster have had similar days.

I'm always interested in looking at the consequences of both great success and great failure.

Ireland didn't break their ceiling at the WC and then repeated this in the 6N by failing to drive home their superiority.

Leinster and Ireland showing very similar traits, perhaps the mix required isn't just best players but best mix of players. I don't have any answer, just questions.

Lads are getting caught up in sequencing, there is a mental question here that some posters (mainly Leinster) go into acrobatics to avoid asking. Leinster have a habit of failing at the ultimate test by tiny margins. Until recently Irelands's WC failures had been by chasms rather than tiny margins, but the ABs game was evidence that things are closer for them and much more like what's been happening for years with Leinster. It so happened that the ABs didn't make any errors against us, which is how you need to play to win the WC. I felt our general demeanour around the SA game was off, lads were celebrating that win big time, including players, as if it mattered. A bit like Mayo losing their heads winning provincial finals and semi finals when the Dubs are waiting in the wings. We didn't pick up any injuries against SA but it was our World Cup, which is worse.

Ah here. Winning a Six Nations without a Grand Slam is now a failure?

Give me a break.

I think you might have taken me up wrong, or more likely I made the point badly.

I believe that the 2023 Ireland team was the best team we have ever had and that we missed an opportunity at greatness at the WC and that we also missed out on a grand slam in 24. If you read what I wrote in my earlier post I consider it great success for us to be even in the conversation about winning either of these competitions and that anytime we get close we should celebrate it. Kind of the opposite of what you think I said. Breaking our ceiling would be performing better than usual or above our norm. Absolutely a thing to be celebrated as is a championship. I'm old enough to remember the times before the last good times and I would never take a championship winning 6Ns for granted.

The argument here seems to be that if you don't win every knock out and six nations game you are a failure. And being close to victory means you must have mental fragility, losing by 50 points would somehow be better. I believe the opposite is true. Putting yourself in a position to win require mental strength, allowing yourself to capitulate and get well beaten is weakness. These teams have the right approach, they are creating opportunities to win and often they are crossing the line and winning. They have no right or guarantee of never losing a game.

I agree to a large extent but some teams have all the mental fortitude in the world and still get well beaten by another team who are simply better rugby players, superior physically and better coached. Losing is not always a sign of mental fragility. Sometimes you just run up against a superior side. Looking back on the 6 Nations just past, would you say that Ireland's mental strength ebbed away more and more with each passing game? Is playing like drains against Wales down to mental fragility. Maybe down more to overconfidence I'd say. Why did we get screwed over by the French?

I dont really buy into the mental fragility stuff in terms of the RWC or Champions Cup but I would agree to some extent it played a role in the last 2 6N. It felt like both tournaments that we started brilliantly and faded as it went on and by game 5 we looked like a side that couldn't wait for the tournament to end.

I think we definitely have a mental block when it comes to RWC QF's tho tbh.

2023 was by a distance our best performance in a QF since the game went pro (normally we've barely fired a shot) but even at that, we started poorly, and were 13-0 down after 20 minutes. I vaguely remember looking into it before, but poor and slow starts seemed to be a common trend, I think.

Now, the team showed huge mental strength to come back from that, and by no means whatsoever could this be considered a choke, but I do think the start suggests it may have been playing on their minds. From there, we could never quite get our noses in front, and but for that I think we win the game.

I think until we can finally shake the QF record off our backs, it could continue to be an issue. I'd liken it to the record vs the All Blacks; once we finally beat them, a few more wins came straight away. I think a large part of that was mental.

Found my post from it before, adding 2023… (fairly depressing reading, remember these…)

• 2023: 13-0 after 20 mins, 1st try conceded after 18
• 2019: 17-0 after 22 mins, 1st try conceded after 14. 
• 2015: 17-0 after 13 mins, 1st try conceded after 3. 
• 2011: 7-0 after 3 mins 
• 2003: 7-0 after 3 mins 

NZ played the perfect game to disrupt us too. Schmidt's fingerprints were all over that win and NZ were hellbent on getting revenge for the previous years losses to us. That hurt them deeeep if you remember.

I think its very unfair to just say we're 'chokers' or dont have the mentality to progress in the WC knockouts. Not in the context of 2023. We got a horrible group and there was so little between the top 4 teams.

You're dismissive of a binary take on things, but that is literally what you've done yourself here:

So we can dismiss it as yet another failure, go on with the usual stuff about mental fragility, sh!tting the bed and whatever else, or we can try and take some positives from it.

Rather, I'd suggest that we didn't sh*t the bed, or were mentally fragile AND that we didn't have a "very good" world cup.

It can be both.

Argentina got further than us, of course they had a better RWC than us.

They got further than us, by virtue of a lucky draw three years before the tournament and absolutely nothing that they did themselves on a rugby field.

This is exactly the sort of mental gymnastics I am talking about, people jumping through hoops to talk down everything related to this Ireland team and try and portray everything as failure.