Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

So? Lots of women were against votes for women, back in the day as well. They even had an anti-suffragism movement for anti-suffrage women. Doesn't make anti suffragism any less of an anti women's rights movement. They didn't want rights for women - maybe because their husbands forbade it, or maybe because they genuinely believed that silly women would misuse those rights.

A pro-trans feminist isn't a feminist but a men's rights advocate

Well yes. About the level of argument this requires.

You seem to be the most conservative person on this thread by a long way.

This level of argument is troll-like in its delivery. Weak opinion based on opinion gets you no where except being outed as a backward thinking conservative.

Happy that most of us in this thread are on the right side of history with critical thinking not being dictated to by either side of the political spectrum.

This issue needs pragmatism and clarity so that women and girls are protected from violent aggressive men wearing lipstick and a frock as yesterday’s march has shown the world.

Not in the swimming pool I was in earlier.

I was watching itv news and one of the trans ‘ women’ that they mentioned is also a twice convicted rapist . I’ve never read Harry Potter but I don’t get the hate for her statements . No

They really did show up a lot of these trans rights activists as being a bunch of weirdos who hate women because they are women and hate themselves because they aren't women.

That's just ignorance.

There are people who have dysphoria - a mental illness causing extreme distress in the patient with regards to their sexed body. Sometimes it's a trauma response to sexual abuse or extreme homophobia, like actual violence. These are the experiences for a transwoman I'm friends with (I'm a woman and perfectly safe around them) and a transwoman I know of (Blaire White). Both gay men. Others with dysphoria are often high on the autism spectrum.

I don't agree with anyone taking cross sex hormones or having such invasive surgery (I think it would be so much healthier for them to receive therapy to accept and love their sexed body and being gay) but if they do so (as adults only obviously, based on just their decision and following intensive therapy and psychiatric consultation) well they're the real deal. They're going through a massive amount which they'd hardly just be doing for the craic. They are who transwomen actually are.

But men just wearing women's clothes, who may (not always) have taken some oestrogen all right but otherwise very much want to keep their member intact and who are insistent that they are women - these are just cross dressers and/or fetishists. They are nothing like the people I describe in my first paragraph. But they're all being grouped together.

But you can see that there's clearly a major distinction. You're actually thinking like TRAs by lumping them all in together.

Well I'm just giving my view, not talking about what policy can be put in place. But my opinion is that when someone goes through the massive physical, mental, emotional and indeed financial process of changing so much about themselves that you wouldn't even know they're the opposite sex (I was totally amazed when I found out my friend is trans) that in itself is enough to indicate they're genuine. They're the real deal.

Yes, so many young trans are mentally in pain and have had a confusing troubled path to find and understand themselves - one that the trans (politically weaponised) ideology hasn’t helped and made worse. It’s very obvious that the care & mental health/ASD support & therapies needed to be in place to help these vulnerable young people from the get go and is, without doubt, a no brainer and needs to be prioritised.

However, the Supreme Court’s decision is separate to all of this. Women and girls across all services and in employment have had their rights re-established so that safeguarding is now fixed and firmly in place.

One group’s vulnerability cannot override another group’s. In order to address one group’s needs, you can’t simply erase or erode another group’s and their rights under the law.

This is why the Supreme Court’s legal decision/clarification is so crucially important.

This is an argument I've seen made by some wealthy trans women when they're trying to appear "open to compromise" - eg I think India Willoughby has used it. Caitlin Jenner too. Basically validation thanks to money spent. I'm not entirely convinced: is someone really less genuine if the NHS or the HSE pays for their drugs and surgery? Being rich makes it easier? Seems unfair to the poor.

The only point that I do think may have value is that once someone has had surgery to remove their penis, I suppose by definition they are unable to rape someone (though only in UK law - not in Ireland, of course) so I can see why that level of surgery might be considered to be an argument for an exemption. In practice I'm not sure how that would work but that's not the point here.

But that's fewer than 10% of all trans women - so to be clear, is that who you mean, or would you say that someone who spent a personal fortune on electrolytic removal of their body hair and had had feminizing facial surgery etc, had done enough?

(Self ID in Ireland means that psychiatric consultations are entirely unnecessary, and as trans activists consider any legal requirement to undergo such consultations as tantamount to conversion therapy, I think you'll find they're rare everywhere for the over-18s now, if not actually banned, certainly in any form that queries the person's "trans" identity. Strictly validation only nowadays, and only to the extent that the person wants to consult for their own reasons.)

I get the feeling people are ignoring what I'm saying, which is annoying and dishonest. OBVIOUSLY I'm only talking about the 10% (the actual transwomen) - I mean I've made that clear. And I never said anything about it just being down to money. Don't misrepresent - that's what TRAs do. It's an emotional, mental, physical, very lengthy AND financial journey. Not something a guy who gets sexual kicks out of wearing women's underwear and listening to women urinate is going to embark on. And it's not just the wealthy. My friend has never had a pot to pee in.

I think self ID is nonsense because it doesn't require any of what makes a person actually trans. And no transwomen should be able to take part in women's contact and strength sports because of their physical advantage, but transwomen are not the same as transvestites, AGPs or just gender non conforming men, and a big part of the problem is the way they're all grouped together.

Willoughby is a vile person but I will concede that they're a transwoman.

Did you read somewhere that the vandalism committed at the rally was in chalk? Or did you just make that up?

Because that's not what the police are saying:

Chief Supt Stuart Bell said: “Criminal damage and vandalism like this has no place on the streets of London, and spoils the area for locals and those visiting. We are pursuing this and will take action against those responsible. Working with the Greater London Authority, plans are under way to remove the graffiti, but this requires specialist equipment and we are confident it will be done shortly.”

It was not just a few scribbles in chalk - it was a case of deliberate destruction, by men in a blind rage because they have never been told "No" before. Especially not by women.