Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

The issue with Project players is that there is no certainty around how they will fare. Some were success, others weren’t, but when the go to plan is sign another south African, then that means local production isn’t a priority, and guess what, when that happens, and others are producing [Leinster] we end up where we are now. The system didn’t favour Leinster. Leinster favoured Leinster and because others favoured signing south africans, guess how that fared out …. It doesn’t matter if they are NIQ or Project players IMO. If the go to is to sign another Bok/Kiwi etc then there is no real desire to improve the local pathways.

Again, I never said Munster were as dominant as Leinster are now, but Munster were the dominant province in that time, 10-12 of the national 22s at the time compared to Leinsters 5-6. They were HC SF regulars, went to 4 finals, won in 06 and 08, backboned the Grand Slam teams in 09 after being the biggest suppliers to the national team in the entire decade. But all the while, behind the scenes, nothing was happening to cash in on that success in terms of player development. It was almost like the powers that be felt the conveyor belt was just going to keep producing. And when it didn’t …..

There is Munster representation in Munster, of course there is, but there is also a hell of a lot of non Munster developed players in the squad, off the top of my head about 35-40% of the squad are signings. When the volume of locally developed players is that low, the chances of getting Munster representation in the national team is far diminished. Beirne is an outlier of the current signings realistically.

sexton being called up to the lions and being made a full time assistant with Ireland is truly bizarre.

There is plenty of vastly more experienced coaches available but Farrell has decided to pick a mate.
Truly bizarre stuff.

Irish rugby is going downhill big time and I would not be surprised if the lions struggle, sexton is not coaching material. Too much arrogance and too little experience.

I’ve given you my answer. I don’t see what “Munster social media accounts” has got to do with it.

Are you really trying to argue that, say, Ulster not having the tax rebate is as significant or as controllable an issue for the IRFU as compared to the Central Contracts imbalance?

I don’t understand the hang up with Munster social media accounts.

It is worth €15k for every €100k a player is paid. That is a material number in any player budget.

As is differences in cost of living (believe it or not), particularly when we are talking about median wages of rugby players.

Fluctuations in FX can move the dial materially for the IRFU annually (maybe read their annual reports) and also the value of distributions.

The only reasons these weren't "issues" is because certain people don't have a self interest in promoting them but the IRFU manage them all the time and have to make "changes". They might not feel the need to put out a press release on it because there aren't certain very loud people always giving out.

”Fudge it”? Why would I? I think you’re missing my point here.

Someone can correct me on my dates but around 2014, people were going batsh1t that a young Munster out half was allowed to go to England. I think this was also approximately the time when people were adamant that Dave Foley was the next long-term Irish lock and that Duncan Casey would be throwing to him. I’m sure there were more but it’s ten years ago like.

I’m not having a go at these players but at the time, people were as utterly convinced of their test credentials as they are now about Coombes, Hodnett or Ahern. Time proved them wrong back then, and we won’t know for a couple of years yet what the real legacy of the Nucifora era is either.

The root cause of this is absolutely, unquestionably the failure of Munster and Ulster. But Nucifora, as their ultimate boss, cannot be absolved of any blame because the buck only stops with the most senior person.

The argument is not 5 years out of date. The cause of now, it's a direct result of 20 years ago. The system does not favour Leinster, the way Leinster/Munster have run things has led to the current situation. History tells us that it is possible for Munster to have a greater number of CC therefore that's not indicative of a system favouring Leinster.

Leinster maximise what they have, Munster failed to capitalise back when they were the dominant province, big name sponsors came knocking, the scramble for tickets to the old Thomond, the media, the quest for the HC etc. I think there was maybe an element of complacency or maybe even arrogance looking beyond the need to harness the success.

It isn't about Munster matching Leinster, it's about Munster being utterly abject for a long time and complaining now about Leinster, IRFU, CC etc.

Nucifora was getting blamed earlier in the thread but he was the guy who very publicly met Joey Carbery around April/May 2018 and basically encouraged him to move to Munster. The same Nucifora who signed off on a considerable number of signings for Munster, be it IQ, NIQ.

The system is about representing Ireland, thats the end goal for lads entering the academies surely? Is to play for your country? And the more lads in Munster, who they develop into regular internationals, the more likely they are to get a CC = more room on the budget.

As for Coombes, to get more ireland caps he would have to displace Conan and Doris. That's unfortunate timing for his career to be behind two great players. But as I said previously, yes Munster have improved but they are still several generations behind Leinster playing catch up. And the fault for all of that lies primarily within.

When Munster were the dominant team, all the supposed favouritism being afforded to Leinster now, were afforded to Munster back then. Will Munster ever be in that dominant position again, no. Realistically I think 4-5 guys on CC is a medium-long term goal. The announcement on Tuesday is the continuation of a delicate balancing act for the IRFU but it's going to be a generation of players before that bears fruit.

And, like I said, I think we can at least agree that none of:

• Ulster not having the tax rebate
• Cost of living
• Fluctuations in FX rates

are in the direct control of the IRFU in the same way as the distribution of funds with regards Central Contracts.

Even if you intensely dislike these "certain people / social media accounts" that you keep bringing up, there clearly was a legitimate argument here completely independent of anything they've said, as evidenced by the fact the IRFU actually did make a change.

Duncan Casey turned 24 in 2014. He had zero caps and never got anymore.

JJ Hanrahan turned 22 in 2014. He had zero caps and never got anymore.

David Foley got two Ireland caps with his first at 25.

Craig Casey debuted for Ireland at 21, was selected for a Rugby World Cup and had a dozen Ireland caps by the time he was 24.

Jack Crowley had 19 caps by the time he was 24 having debuted when he was 22.

Coombes made his first Ireland test team at 22 (he isn't Ireland 23 worthy, but certainly Ireland 33 worthy). Nash is 23 level.

I picked 3 "like for like" examples - this isn't a make believe narrative. In terms of how they measure up, there is no comparison.

Really from that period we are only talking about Rory Scannell and Niall Scanell making the grade of even bubble internationals (not even regular 23 players), that's the yawning gap in the Munster squad. If I go down further on it even the quality of the non capped players just isn't there from that generation vs. the most recent one.

Frankly if Munster produce 3-4 regular home grown regular internationals (i.e. regularly in Ireland 23s) every 5-6 years along with some more bubble players (potential to cover gaps for Ireland) and squad players at provincial level, they are fine. Add to that in some Leinster bred players like Beirne, Loughman and (to an extent) Jager then Munster should be in and around 10-12 players of the Ireland 33 every squad and getting 5-7 players in the 23. It's the missing generation that is Munster's problem and that DOES predate Nucifora.

And no, having being involved in age grade rugby around that period, this was clear to everyone. The year JJ got nominated for Junior World Player of the year, Munster only had 4 of the 29 in that Junior World Cup squad. There were also only 4 in 2013. 2 in 2011! I can go on here - check the age grade results around then as well. They were NOT pretty.

The IRFU official account responded to some Munster based "fan" the other week who got outraged at Jack Crowley not featuring in promotional material posted on twitter. Maybe you think it's stupid, maybe it's a gigantic waste of their time, but rightly or wrongly they absolutely do care about social media accounts.

And Leinster had to turn off replies to a post about Ross Byrne.

The continued portrayal on here that rubbish on social media only comes from "fans of a certain province / certain part of the world" is nonsense.

In any case, I don't understand why "social media posts" keep getting dragged into the discussion here. Why can't we debate what posters have actually said on here.

And it completely misses my point on this; even if you think "entitled social media users from a certain part of the world" are the most bad-faith, bad-actors in all of this, their points on THIS seem to have been correct; the IRFU have actually changed their policy.

That answer seems quite close to the fudge I feared as you never actually directly answer my question.

The current guys you mentioned aren't even what I am really talking about, though do play a part, I meant more the level below that, the likes of Gleeson, Edogbo x 2, Kendellen, O'Connell, Quinn, Campbell, O'Connor, and hyped even younger players like O'Leary Kareem.

Sure the buck stops with the most senior person but if that is the case he was the man in charge when three provinces won the league during his time at the top, with Munster being the most recent.

On this topic yes it is. There are issues in Ulster rugby that historically have not got the same traction. Now part of this is the fact that the “southern” media naturally does not have the same presence there, but they are there.

The IRFU will naturally respond to attention. The point I have consistently made is that the IRFU are constantly tweaking the “model”. You just don’t always hear about it because they don’t have to disclose it to you or I. If it is something like this (and yes certain social media accounts have pushed this, that’s a fact) or say something like Connacht Rugby protests, then they will feel the need to respond.

From a Munster perspective, at least, I think things began to improve towards the end of the JvG era, and have clearly significantly improved since Mike Prendergast has been on board. But you'd imagine that base level of skills should be happening further down the chain.

And tbh, I don't think Hanrahan's lack of basic skills were what prevented him from becoming a top player; he was a really skillful player, but he 1) seemed to be a real confidence player and 2) lacked distance in his kicking.

Fwiw, I think working with Mike Prendergast would seem like a pretty attractive prospect, making Munster a more attractive proposition. The issue now is that how Munster play is pretty removed from how Ireland are playing. But I am glad Munster are pursuing it, because 1) I believe it's the only way we can compete against the monster packs at the pointy end of Europe and 2) it's a more attractive brand of rugby to watch.