Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Ugh no don't say that, now he's just going to go on his tiresome old WW2 rant to (ironically) distract from his support of war crimes

It's absolutely shocking what the world is allowing to happen. Even our own leaders have gone quiet for fear of upsetting that prick in the white house. Many people believe the people of Gaza are subhuman muslims and it's fine to irradicate them. They won't admit it openly as we all know. History will not be kind to what the world allowed Israel to do to innocent women and children. The world is losing its grip on right and wrong. The only things that matter are power and greed now.

The vast majority of conflicts do not end unconditionally. In fact, in recorded history, comparatively few wars have ended in such a way. Most battles and wars usually ended in "parley" of some description and modern conflict (from Napoleon onwards) is usually a limited affair, concluded when both parties sit down to discuss terms.

Some wars during antiquity would have seen the victor completely destroy a foe, such as the Roman Republic's destruction of Carthage (after two previous Punic wars ended in peace talks) or the Roman Empire's extermination of Dacia. But such extremities were the odd man out. Most of Rome's victories ended with the vanquished suing for peace and offering terms. the vanquished territory would become "Roman", but the conquered people kept their own traditions and ways of life.

One of the earliest examples of "unconditional surrender" being a stipulation of a battle's conclusion was during the American Civil War, but the war itself ended with conditions being allowed to the Confederacy. The most famous example, however, of unconditional surrender was during the Second World War, and the wisdom of such a demand was highly questionable even at the time.

These days, it would be difficult to end a war unconditionally, because there are international agreements in place to make sure that certain conditions are met for the defeated side with regards to their treatment by the victors. In fact, demanding an unconditional surrender from a soon to be defeated nation would be seen as pretty barbaric by the standards of modern civilisation.

The poster you are replying to hasn't a bull's notion what they are trying to talk about.

Remember all the posts justifying Israeli actions by explaining that the IDF always gives warnings and asks people to evacuate to "safe areas"? I do.

Remember - the IDF have been demonstrable liars from day 1. The murder of 15 medics a few weeks back seems not have sated their lust - now they are burning civilians in safe areas alive.

Depraved.

At least 37 people have been killed in a series of Israeli strikes, most in areas where displaced civilians have set up tents, Gaza's Hamas-run civil defence agency says. Witnesses in al-Mawasi told the BBC that tents were engulfed in flames following a "powerful" explosion, causing the deaths of dozens of Palestinians including children. One man said he woke to "screaming and panic" and watched as "the flames spread rapidly from one tent to another".

Israel has previously told Palestinians to evacuate from other parts of Gaza to al-Mawasi.

Jewish leaders in Britain as part of the Board of Deputies of British Jews have written an open letter with regards to the current state of Israel and their hideous slaughter in Palestine…

"We write as representatives of the British Jewish community out of love for Israel and deep concern for its future…

The inclination to avert our eyes is strong as what is happening in unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up and to speak out.

This is what we see.

The last eighteen months of heartbreaking war have shown us that the most successful way of bringing the hostages home and creating a lasting peace is through diplomacy. By the end of the first phase of the second ceasefire and hostage release deal 135 hostages had been released through negotiation, just 8 by military action, with at least 3 tragically killed by the Israel Defence Forces.

America, Qatar and Egypt, again, stood as guarantors of the release of all the remaining hostages in the second phase of this deal in return for Israel withdrawing from the Gaza strip. A strong plan for the reconstruction of the Gaza was approved and supported by the International Community to be managed by a Palestinian leadership which would be a viable alternative to HAMAS financed by the Arab League.

At that moment, the Israeli government instead chose to break the ceasefire and return to war in Gaza with the Itamar offensive, so called as it was Itamar Ben-Givir's condition for returning to the coalition, thus enabling the Israeli government's budget to be passed within the tight deadline needed to avoid an election.

Since then no hostages have returned, hundreds and hundreds more Palestinians have been killed, food, fuel and medical supplies have been once again been blocked from entering Gaza and we're back to a brutal war where the killing of 15 paramedics and their burial in a mass grave is again possible and risks being normal. Such incidents are too painful and shocking to take in. But we know in our hearts we cannot turn a blind eye or remain silent at this renewed loss of life and livelihoods, with hopes dwindling for a peaceful reconciliation and the return of the hostages.

The most extremist of Israeli governments is openly encouraging violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, strangling the Palestinian economy and building more new settlements than ever. This extremism also targets Israeli democracy with the independence of the judicial system again under fierce attack, the police increasingly resembling a militia, and repressive laws are being advanced as provocative partisan populism is bitterly dividing Israeli society.

Israel's soul is being ripped out and we, members of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, fear for the future of the Israel we love and such close ties to. Silence is seen as support for polices and action that run contrary to our Jewish values. Led by the families of the hostages, hundreds of thousands of Israelis are demonstrating on the streets against the return to war by an Israeli government that has not prioritised the return of the hostages. We stand with them. We stand against the war. We acknowledge and mourn the loss of Palestinian life. We yearn for the day after this conflict when reconciliation can start. As we make the festival of freedom with so many hostages still in captivity it is our duty as Jews to speak out."

I don't think that I need to add any more to the above, as I believe it says so much on its own.

So I won't.

The winning comment granted is a bit tone deaf but there's an important point within. Yes, Israel can stop the killing immediately, but, so too can Hamas.

The victims, and the suffering, are borne entirely by the people of Gaza. Horrible, terrible, inexcusable, I have no argument there.

But Hamas bears responsibility as Israel does. Yes, I understand we can hold Israel to a higher standard by virtue to them being a so-called democratic, Western nation in the midst of the Middle East that holds all the power in a broad sense.

But it's not an "Israel is 100% to blame" situation. You can argue it's 99/1, 90/10, or whatever, I certainly wouldn't be personally arguing that it's 50/50, but Hamas has a role to answer for in everything that's happened post Oct 7th.

The "winning" comment is a part of that. Hamas launched the war, Hamas clearly lost. There's an onus on Hamas as well to come to the table in good faith, acknowledging the reality of the situation.

I know it's not black/white. I know there's other issues at play, like Israel stealing land. It's a complex situation.

Netanyahu has wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza and Hamas gave him the excuse to to do it. Whether he'll do it to the extent he wishes to remains to be seen. Gaza as an urban centre is now destroyed. Israel created Hamas as a counter to the PLO in Arafat's time.

Israel has conclusively lost the PR war. Yes it was wrong of Hamas to take hostages and to launch the October 7th attack. However Israel's response was grossly disproportionate. Unfortunately America is not an honest broker in the M/E. The Jewish lobby in America has seen to that.

The danger for the lobby is that young people are now more inclined to sympathise with Palestinians as they get their news from non mainstream media. Israel is on the wrong side of history in committing genocide. The accusations of anti semitism no longer hold any weight. The Israeli killing machine may not have Gas chambers but it is as equally monstrous as the Nazi's in it's treatment of Palestinians.

Their is a good chance that Netanyahu may be the last PM of Israel as we know it.

Sure, valid point.

But the problem here is that Hamas is the government of Gaza.

They're at the point of unconditional surrender, but they refuse to take that step. And it's Gaza that's suffering. That's not, for clarity, me saying that everything Israel is doing is totally fine, or justified, based on that.

Both things can be wrong simultaneously. Hamas for not surrendering unconditionally, Israel for relentlessly pounding the enclave based on same.

But this isn't a 100% Israel fault to my mind. Hamas can end the suffering as much as Israel can.

What you seem to be saying is Hamas can't surrender; that there's no point.

Surely, you can appreciate that therein lies the problem.

Would you apply the same logic to Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan in 1945; they won't surrender, therefore the onus in on the USSR and USA to dial it back?

Hamas has to surrender unconditionally and accept it can play zero role in Gaza in the future. But it will not do that, for reasons you've outlined.

Understandable yes, innocent people are suffering yes, Israel should be held to account for excesses, yes, but it means Hamas shoulder a lot of blame for what's happening.

Hamas can end this as much as Israel can. Accept total defeat, surrender unconditionally. But it refuses. And that is the Government of Gaza refusing to accept defeat.

Israel can be both wrong in how it's acting, while Hamas can be equally wrong in refusing to surrender. Both things are completely true.

What you seem to be saying is Hamas can't surrender; that there's no point.

Surely, you can appreciate that therein lies the problem.

I think if they haven't surrendered by now, then the chance to get the hostages back in March should have been seized on.

Would you apply the same logic to Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan in 1945; they won't surrender, therefore the onus in on the USSR and USA to dial it back?

But the difference was Hamas had offered the chance to surrender and end this.

Hamas has to surrender unconditionally and accept it can play zero role in Gaza in the future. But it will not do that, for reasons you've outlined.

Understandable yes, innocent people are suffering yes, Israel should be held to account for excesses, yes, but it means Hamas shoulder a lot of blame for what's happening.

To surrender unconditionally doesn't mean Israeli military attacks will stop though.

Hamas can end this as much as Israel can.

They demonstrably cannot. If they surrendered tomorrow; do you really think Israel will pull back all military forces?

Accept total defeat, surrender unconditionally. But it refuses. And that is the Government of Gaza refusing to accept defeat.

I wouldn't like to be a remaining hostage if that was the case; a fanatical group with nothing to gain and facing a gruesome death won't leave much behind. "Unconditionally" also leaves the door open to Israel to continue their retribution in Gaza and the West Bank.

Israel can be both wrong in how it's acting, while Hamas can be equally wrong in refusing to surrender. Both things are completely true.

The refusal to surrender is too simplistic; The situation is entirely in Israel's hands; they had a way to end this, they reneged on the deal. To get Hamas to the point of returning the hostages should have been Israel's end game but they preferred violence. The same blood thirst is levelled at Hamas in relation to their Oct 7th attack.

I've asked this before - what happens if Hamas surrender tomorrow and arrive at a border checkpoint saying this is us and we quit?

People here have said that Hamas should leave - where do they go, who facilitates the move? If (and that's a big if) they are allowed to live; would you really trust Israel to deal with them in any semblance of a fair manner? Others here have criticised Egypt for not taking Gazan people; that would be Israel's wish come true - Gazans become someone else's problem and they gain control of the territory.

Edit: I await the accusation that I am advocating Hamas hold out; I'm not. It would be great if they all downed weapons tomorrow and this end this but unfortunately the reality means there needs to be an agreed way out. The UN have been shown to be eunuchs but could step in and ensure some sort of lasting solution.

This makes sense to me, the border with Egypt can't be left open.

Your understanding of genocide is incorrect, look it up. Like Russia, Israel are committing genocide. Israel have an elected govt. The people of Israel are responsible for their govt. Far more so than the people of Russia. Shamefull considering history. Who would have thought the persecuted would become the persecutors.

Israel-supporters and their continued inability to internalise that Netanyahu supported Hamas and made sure they kept power to stop a united Palestine. It would break their brains to acknowledge the truth of it all.

There was never a question that it is Genocide. The only people defending it are those who would swallow all the water in Lough Neagh. The same posters who continually jump in with the same ridiculous stuff all the time ie -

Hamas are hiding in tunnels and won't come out to fight.

Hamas are hiding behind women and children. Presumably when not hiding in tunnels. An excuse for the numbers murdered.

Hamas are stealing the food and medicine. Presumably when not hiding in tunnels again. Again an excuse to hide the deliberate atrocities against a civilian population.

The figures for the dead are wrong. The last refuge of a denier.

Israel is the only Democracy in the region. Laughable really.

etc etc etc.

Hey Trump is better than Biden for Palestine. Never Forget that.