Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

No idea how to read that horribly quoted post you dropped in.

What IRFU have agreed is the case I've been making for years that three provinces have been run poorly and haven't made the most of their pathways. The IRFU answer is to tax Leinster but are rightfully not trusting the other provinces to use the money wisely so are ring fencing and overseeing it.

No need to continue to discussion, we've both agreed that your initial response to me was completely wrong and there is clearly 'a hit' to Leinster.

That's a masterclass in selective reading if I've ever seen one

We're all in agreement that aloooof's reading is incredibly selective - they even agreed themselves.

You also specifically refer to Humphreys "talking out of his arse" when he says he wants to keep Leinster where they are. Considering Humphreys had to sign off on today's signing, that doesn't really line up does it?

If someone wants to keep a side 'where the are' they wouldn't change the rules to remove 500k budget in addition to the previously announced 1.5 million euro reduction.

Now I am not some kind of tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist who feels the IRFU or Hump do not care about Leinster, are favouring other provinces over them, or are out to get Leinster - no one in their sane mind should feel that way about either IRFU or Hump.

With that in mind, Hump has given a greenlight to a move that Leinster requested, like he does for all the provinces.

I've no problem with saying the IRFU gives with one hand and takes with the other for all provinces, including Leinster - again it would be really weird to be unable to accept those facts.

It remains to be seen how this CC and player pathways will actually work out and how it improves rugby in Ireland but once thing is clear something had to change and I'm glad that Humphreys is trying to tidy up the mess left by Nucifora.

In fairness, he did great in his primary role of making Ireland successful, but at the same time player production at Munster and Ulster fell off a cliff during his tenure and while it might not have been his fault, he didn’t seem to be able to fix it.

This scheme - whatever it ends up being - does at least acknowledge the root cause of all of this as the unacceptable player development in those provinces. Nucifora didn’t seem willing to grasp that nettle, maybe he just didn’t see it as his job, but he should have.

DN was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. In the time Nucifora was in situ Munster had a lot of signings in general, but particularly from South Africa and NZ. This was something already happening prior to his arrival for a number of years.

Munster were given plenty of latitude on that front, including some high profile signings just after the 2019 RWC.

Whatever mess existed, that process began long before he arrived and by the time he left last year munsters production line is far better now. But its gonna take at least another generation or two yet

Earls, POM and Murray were all irish regulars by the time DN arrived. A few others like Zebo, Kilcoyne became semi regular internationals in that time but that's been the last crop of Munster players to have do so. Reversing that will take time and that all began to happen while DN was in the job.

So No, DN did not leave a mess behind. No system is perfect and Humphreys is trying to improve things further. Leinster got their sh1t together 20 years ago and are in this dominant position now as a result. Munster were in that dominant position in the noughties but abject failure at management level in the province left them miles behind and are now playing catch up.


Nothing Nucifora or anyone could do to click their fingers and recapture that wasted period 
People seem bitter he didn't turn water into wine in an instant 


Well, the guy was there ten years. I’m certainly not suggesting he could click his fingers or do anything in an instant. But ten years is a long time to be playing the “it was like that when I got here” card. Ulster are every bit as culpable as Munster btw.

Maybe he turned things around and that will bear fruit in the next few years, we won’t know that for a while yet, there’s limited evidence so far. Likewise it will be at least ten years before we know if this new “ring fencing” idea has paid off.

I think Nucifora did a great job overall but it’s reasonable to question if he could have done more on this front. It’s also noticeable that his successor started on it very early in his tenure.

I mean, the IRFU have literally changed the Central Contract model; presumably they thought it was "unfair" too, despite the protestations.

they've changed it now, will the moaning stop? no chance.

But when he did, he got abused. Pienaar?

I think Munster were refused signings because they simply weren't trusted IMO. Funnily enough there is some signs of progress in the last 5 years as a result. But it won't be for 10 more years before we know truly.

The irony is there was as much moaning about "dragging Leinster back / paying a tax" etc.

Presumably your in favour of the change?

The IRFU have tweaked the model and funding regularly over the last 20 years for many different things.

Player development is not down to the fact that Leinster had more central contracts. Central contracts is the result of something seeded long before then.

There is this weird narrative around the place on provinces and development. On the one hand Leinster are dastardly for improving themselves, but on the other the IRFU are responsible for Munster. Munster were built off a local identity, same with Ulster, yet that appears to stop when it doesn't suit. Interestingly when you take Leinster, there is also this weird narrative on schools as if they just dropped from the sky 15 years ago. But actually if you go back to the 2000s for a long while the newspaper narrative that schools rugby ("Cup rugby") was a hindrance. Now that has suddenly been flipped on its head - now it's Leinster's identity and is a positive.

Let's look at Munster and Ulster objectively.

For Munster, the "gap" in player production is the generation between Crowley / Ahern / Casey / Hodnett / Coombes to Zebo / O'Mahoney / Earls / Murray. It's the missing link, those in their late 20s to early 30s now - essentially those who left school from about 2010 to 2015. The quality dropped significantly. Incidentally this is literally the period when Munster should have been harvesting off the back of their success. But the signs were there for anyone who followed age grade rugby in the 2000s. Munster were dropping off quickly in terms of those making age grade.

Go back to the first game in the Aviva and the issues were obvious;

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-20126792.html

Now for Ulster, their issue was different. They HAD that generation of players who would now be in their late 20s to early 30s. But their issue really came down to the organisation imploding over the court case.

Both Munster and Ulster have had their organisational dysfunction AND some unluckiness along the way. BUT…

Nucifora actually did work to improve things. You want the IRFU to step in - they did. Nucifora pushed players to move around the provinces. And whilst there are convenient narratives now attached to certain players but Leinster lost a lot of excellent talent like Jordi Murphy, Jack McGrath, Andrew Conway, Joey Carbury…in additional to a lot more younger players and squad players who were given the move. Additionally - returnees like Beirne and Moore were pushed to other provinces (in the previous generation, Leinster benefited from Mike Ross and Ian Reddan doing the same). Both Ulster and Munster were augmented by Leinster talent and in the same period, were able to sign a better quality of NIQ than Leinster could.

Nucifora joined in 2014 so realistically you are looking at 2017/2018 before any tangible improvements should be seen in players coming into adulthood. I would say Munster were turning the corner by then and we see that now with the batch of players in their mid 20s in the squad. I would say Ulster is more of a failure for Nucifora, but again I would point to the court case. Nucifora did plenty to try and keep them competitive by moving players. You go over the last 10 years and in terms of additional resources being thrown at the other provinces, I don't think it is reasonable to say Munster or Ulster were deprived.

that certainly doesnt suit the narrative pushed by others.

I think it's true that no one thought that having the CCs so heavily weighted to one province was ideal.

And if that's as mildly as the arguments were put forward, I'd have had no issue with it.

I don't think a change in funding model was necessarily required, but however they went about it clearly a change in development pathways in the other three provinces was very much needed.

But if a change in the development pathways was very much needed - and it's reasonable to assume that would require financing to close the gap - how do you finance it without a change in the funding model? It's a zero sum game.

It's a very welcome change, imo.

Look, it's entirely possible I'm spiky about this, but that's entirely in reaction to some of the blowback that appeared on here (and, well you've seen the continued misrepresentation for yourself). At a minimum, I can say my thoughts on this have remained consistent since this time last year, and I'm wholly glad the IRFU's thinking that a change was absolutely required, was similar.

Ah nice to see you comb through a post to find anything so you can dismiss it!

But the point was in the last decade of talent that helped a team. Don’t get me wrong- during that period Leinster also had the last few serviceable years of Cronin and also got Henshaw.

But you simply can’t deny that the other provinces have been given a huge redistribution of talent from Leinster.

Munster have had the guts of 30 “Leinster” players at various stages of their careers over the last decade being involved there.

The convenient narrative from elsewhere is that these are all cast offs or whatever, it’s nonsense.

Munster have also just taken delivery of two Leinster players who will be fine squad players for Munster just as they were for Leinster (injury and coaching permitting).

If you take Lee Barron, Leinster have been more or less providing the two Hookers to the Irish 23 for the last 3 years. This has given Barron exposure as Leinster have never been able to have a bigger squad than others despite having so many internationals. Indeed outside of Barron, an Academy hooker literally got capped for Ireland this year after the exposure he got from Leinster. There’s a cost to all of this.

And I have no issue with players moving either. Leinster have benefited from it in the past but now really given the population and them maximising their production, it makes sense to turn some of those players over. But when you are consistently getting 5 to 6 senior squad players from Leinster, how can you seriously be moaning?

Nucifora and Leinster private schools are a convenient scapegoat for the fact that Munster took their eye off the ball for years.