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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    Funding the academies and altering the talent selection & development programs I suspect. Leinster has proven the academy system is world class if implemented correctly by adequate funding, staffing, and raw talent



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I think we should just ban the GAA or merge with the IRFU.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 722 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    What ones did he shirk?

    I think you said in another post you'd put up some clips of him refusing to tackle or running up out of the line beyond play or something, any sign of those?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I don't have a working stream online but if you can get hold of the match, at 3:13 he runs out of the line, tags a Glasgow player around the waist, allowing him to offload under no pressure and stay in the attacking line.

    At 18:27 after TOB's kick is charged down, Rowe goes down the wing and Prendergast, instead of melting him over the touchline, sort of runs up to him and gives him a little tap and gets fended to the ground.

    At 38:55 he comes out of the line early but makes the tackle, from behind, after initially falling off it. Not much wrong with that, given the outcome.

    At 41:15, on his own clearing kick, runs up at Steyn and again sort of claps his hands instead of making a tackle. In fairness to him, he runs back into the line, Horne sees him and picks and goes while Prendergast again runs up past him and pats him on the back and grabs him as he goes past. Horne does go down but he's already made the offload and Glasgow gain 10 metres.

    Maybe it's a legitimate tactic of his, as on 51:30 he again runs up past the ball carrier rather than hitting him head-on in a dominant tackle. He grabs him from behind and takes him down with a pseudo hip-drop. This gives up 5m and clean ruck ball for Glasgow when the chance is there to stop him dead and maybe force a knock-on.

    This one is a bit fuzzy on the video I have but at 51:48, instead of dropping into the defensive line he stands beside the ball carrier and I think his own team-mate knocks him over making the tackle. I'm honestly not sure what he's trying to do - maybe a choke tackle? He did seem to be trying to hold players up by the waist a lot of the time and he does complete a choke tackle about 50 minutes in, albeit with help from Barrett. JB grabbing a Glasgow player by the waist and carrying him 5m into touch (54:48) is maybe what he's looking to do but just doesn't have the strength or technique for. If I'm being generous, running out of the line might be an attempt to mimic Ringrose/Henshaw/Barrett but it's a bit pointless without the actual tackle.

    None of these in isolation, particularly in such a cake walk of a match where Glasgow had very little attacking ball, takes away from what was a superb performance in attack. It would be remiss to gloss over it though, and stronger opponents won't let defenders away with that much.

    Watching it back, Barrett was even better than on first viewing. He was absolutely everywhere, cleaning up after other players' mistakes, a monster in defence and attack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    You could make every province more competitive if you gave the same number of central contracts to each province. Obviously there would be other issues like 14 doesn't divide equally by 4 so you would change to 12 or 16 resulting in 3 or 4 per province

    There's the obvious issue that you'd be artificially weakening one province. Unless the IRFU decided to go for 44 central contracts (highly unlikely) this would inevitably result in some of the top Leinster players leaving to play for one of the other provinces. Leinster would effectively be down 7 or 8 of their current crop, or have to fund them like they do Snyman and Barrett.

    The upshot is you would likely have a stronger national team and more equality among the provinces.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Why would you have a stronger national team? Giving the same number of central contracts to each team is just awful logic. You'll have completely substandard players on them in one province and exceptional players elsewhere not on them.

    Forcing Leinster to lose players like e.g. Keenan, and hoping they choose to move to Munster or Ulster instead of just leaving Ireland is not a good strategy.

    Improving the development paths for the other provinces is a very good approach. But it will take years to bear fruit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I never said it was a good strategy only that it would make every province more competitive.

    And on reflection I should actually correct that to say it would make 3 of the other provinces more competitive

    A stronger national team would be the result of a better mix of talent at the provinces which would help to improve the talent already on offer. A case of surrounding yourself by better players to become better yourself. The added talent at the other 3 provinces would eventually reap the rewards

    I'd imagine there are plenty of Leinster players that would rather play for a French or English club than to play for another province and plenty of supporters that would have their stomachs turn at the thought of e.g. Keenan donning their provinces jersey so yes it would be a big risk on multiple fronts if the IRFU were to implement such an idea

    But in response to the question "Is there a silver bullet to make the other provinces more competitive?" that's one way they could go about it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I don't buy it. I mean, the IRFU aren't going to do that anyway, but if a player from Leinster needs to go to another province to get a central contract, I'd bet that they'be be asking themselves "do I really want a CC?", especially if they can get not vastly less money on a PONI contract.

    It also wouldn't work for Ulster as they'd be more likely to stay down South on a standard contract, knowing they'd make more money over their career from getting their Irish tax rebate than they would moving to take up a CC in Ulster.

    I also have to say, as an Ulster fan, as much as I love Cooney, Timoney, young Jack Murphy et al, I want more, better Ulster players. Every now and then someone talks about a draft system - as a lifelong supporter of a province which would probably benefit greatly from importing young talent from such a system, I don't want it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Sorry - was responding to @Red Silurian's first post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,417 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    We've enough discourse already about too many Leinster players in the Irish team...

    Can you just imagine a majority of Leinster players in the Munster team



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭ersatz


    How much would it cost to fund players attending one of the rugby boarding schools, 30 or 40K for 4 years? Newbridge, Clongowes, Blackrock, Rockwell, Kilkenny and one or two others. Most of these schools already produce players that feed into academies, it seems an obvious one to identify young talent from around the country and fund their education. <ost of these schools don't recruit afaik, or of they do it is with already notable players at 15-16 years old.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    That's lot of disruption. There's bound to be better ways to spend the money. Also, you're just folding other provinces' youth into the Leinster system rather than improving theirs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,716 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    This needs to be about finding more and better players from the three provinces. Pumping more money into the same systems and diverting more Leinster players to these provinces aren’t solutions.

    Hopefully there is a genuine plan to develop new pathways.

    On an unrelated note, it’s interesting that a province will be picking up 40% of the cost of a contract with no input into the terms of that contract.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I wonder if a province could offer a player and non-subsidised, non-CC contract separately with terms they were happier with. That'd be an interesting conversation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    As I understand it, the new money and the pathways themselves will be administered by the IRFU themselves, to schools and clubs. The professional provincial bodies will not see the money.

    So we'll see how simple it is to improve the situation without the mismanagement of the various provincial CEOs and boards and so on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    Nor really. Its more likely going to mean 2 or 3 guys on the periphery move elsewhere, be it to another province or overseas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,945 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Could the AIL not be improved as a pathway for developing players? If there's not equivalent schools in the other provinces to replicate Leinster's system, are there clubs that could be invested in instead?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I got fairly slaughtered on here around this time last season for suggesting something needed to change with the Central Contract situation. That was before the “up to 30%” came in, and I’m glad to have seen both that and now this change going to be implemented; it has to be for the good of Irish Rugby in the medium to long-term. The status quo just wasn’t tenable.

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,716 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Well that sounds reasonable. Having three separate schemes means lots of duplication, lots of waste and lots of conflict of interests. Whatever this plan is, it’s better being centrally administered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    So like when Hump spoke about props, he was again talking out of his arse when he said:

    "For me, it’s about making sure that Leinster remain where they are."

    Leinster had the foresight to use outside money to invest in their pathways, rather than big money NIQs, reaped the rewards but now will be paying a tax on the current model to fund the shortcomings of other provinces.

    This is a definite hit to Leinster but to the annoyance of many they'll work their way through it and still be the most successful province. If it comes to it they'll find more money from outside backers to top up contracts or bring in NIQs, like other provinces were celebrated for.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    You would be fifty times better just funding more development officers in the provinces instead of that. Theres no guarantees kids who move to these schools would progress to top level. The irfu/provinces shouldnt be funding scholarships to these schools.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You'd be hard pushed to argue Leinster haven't "remained where they are" this season, after the 30% was introduced…



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,833 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I think we're seeing today the result of the hit on Leinsters finances. Smaller senior squad, quicker academy progression and top level marquee signings. There must have been SOME kind offering presented back to Leinster in those funding conversations



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Which, by and large, I'm fine with. I genuinely think our senior squad was a bit bloated with 3rd tier players. It was a nice luxury to have, but not necessary and potentially counterproductive to academy progression.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    Yes the leaner format is good for all and ensures more game time for the guys on periphery or academy



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,833 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    yes absolutely luxury, but I think the previous experiences with the likes of Thorn, Elsom and now Barrett showed / will show that these short term marquee signings are incredibly valuable for player progression and learning.

    "Reducing academy player / novice player playing time" is a very negative way to look at these (not saying that that's your opinion, but definitely something used by others as a whinge against)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Oh I have zero issue with the marquee signings, I think we should probably have been doing more of them over the years.

    But I think we can manage with our third choice players being more akin to academy level than seasoned provincial players. As indeed we have been doing this year in many cases anyway, with an academy player in every single squad so far.

    Post edited by Podge_irl on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,785 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    This aged well after today's news

    There's zero fear of Leinster not being "kept where they are" so let's stop pretending that these measures are going to/intended to kneecap Leinster in any way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    What benefit would the IRFU kneecapping Leinster have?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Very true. The IRFU threw a sop to the other provinces yesterday and then allowed todays deal to go through. Leinster will dominate Irish rugby for the foreseeable future and the other provinces will gradually fall away to the detriment of Irish rugby.



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